As one of the setters on the ABS Nationals setting crew I would like to know what the climbers, coaches and parents thought of the setting style, mid-comp change overs and the climbing terrain at ABS Nationals.
ABS Youth Nationals Route Setting - Thoughts?
(27 posts) (14 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
-
Hey guys,I . I would also love to hear from everyone on the youth and adult events the past few weeks.It would also would be nice to know who was turning wrenches at such an awesome event. USA climbing never posted those guys behind the event that made it all possible for these climbers...
Posted 1 year ago # -
i loved the whole setup. i thought the routes were well thought out and showed the skills of all the climbers. i thought they were fair for all sizes and abilities.
look at the top 10 climbers in each category. you had all size ranges from the smallest to the tallest.
i loved that even the little kids got big ass moves on big ass walls and were making dynos to the top.if i would change anything, i would elimnate the slabs. yes it is part of climbing, but so are many things no one wants to climb or watch.
in my opinion this abs youth national had great setting and showcased what the climbers could or couldnt do. im not just saying this cuz you are my friend mike, i mean it. you know i would tell you if i thought it was balls. im never scared to share my thoughts.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Change overs were super impressive. From what I saw of the climbers and what I heard from the climbers I think the style and difficulty were great and did a good job of separating the fields. You guys have some super strong little rippers to set for and I can't imagine how challenging that is. I'm down with Tyson and the big moves on big walls for the little guys. One of my D's was one who took a nasty fall on semi 1. I don't think the bad part was falling from 15(?) feet but from the poor location of the spotter- not a setters problem at all. I say keep the slab! Yes it's not the most exciting thing to watch but I think it offers another good way to separate the climbers. Plus my climbers do pretty well on them!
Posted 1 year ago # -
We use the Slab for every Finals in our local boulder comp, you can set super exciting stuff on slab.
I am in no way claiming to be a better setter, but the slab problem I set this year was super tedious, involving mantels, heel hooks and even a sideways rock over move that was the closest thing I could set to a dyno.
Slab can be super fun to watch you just need to grade the route right so that it looks like everyone is about to blow every move.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Mike, Luke, Kynan and company, you guys raised the bar with this one. The venue was great, the walls were great, the setting was a spectacle, and everyone was on the edge of their seat.
Expectations, critiques, and difficulty for this event and the SCS National are always high. Too high in some areas. Consequently, I feel there's never an event without some sort of grumbling -- whether large or small. But, regarding this event -- given the size of the field, the range of abilities, and the seperation / day -- the ABS 2011 setters did a fantastic job. Moreover, I don't think anybody who grumbled, if even a little, left early. Everybody stayed and watched; the show was captivating. That speaks volumes (Motavation?).
I'm looking forwards to next year's ABS event. Can we do this one on the West Coast by chance?
And one last thought: this picture is awesome.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@ rougeux
you wrote:
>I don't think the bad part was falling from 15(?) feet but from the poor location of the spotter- not a setters problem at all.I think that is not true. i believe that anything to do with safety is the concern of the setters.
There are a couple of reasons for that.
First, the routesetters are probably the most experienced persons around to see if anything is safe or not. For that reason the chief route setter is part of the competition jury.And second, the Routesetters should not create boulders that the organization cannot handle in a safe way. so if you know the mats are bad, or there is no or bad spotting you should use that info when creating and setting the problems.
As a side note:
I feel setters should not create problems where a spotter is needed. I don't feel there is a need for a sportter on any climbing stage.Posted 1 year ago # -
herman,
i think what rogeux was stating was that the spotters were the problem, not the setters and their routes.
i personally do not think that any of these problems required spotters. kids got hurt this past weekend because of the spotters. they were in poor position and acted as bowling pins and the climbers as the bowling balls. there was not one problem where i thought there should be a spotter. (spotters please dont read this and think i am bashing you, i am not, it was the situation you were put into and you tried the best you could.)
however certain coaches and parents continued to insist on having spotters. it did a dis-service to the setters and the quality of their work. i heard a few people blaming the setting for injuries and to me that was an uneducated view point. anyone who sets regularly and watches kids/adults climbing regularly knows that the spotters were the problem and should have been removed all together.
i personally teach my kids to climb without spotters. i believe it is a crutch and they rely to much on them. you need to learn to climb without spotters because ultimately it is just you and the wall. when bouldering, evey fall is a ground fall. you might as well learn how to take one.like herman, i believe that there is no place for spotters in competition.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Have any of these kids learned how to fall properly? Most coaches do not teach their kids how to properly fall and roll properly. This is obvious by watching. The spotting by volunteers has always been a problem. Most spotters are also not trained and don't know the first thing about spotting. For the younger kids, keep the tops lower and teach them how to fall properly, have good padding and forget the spotting unless it is someone the climber trusts and has spotted them before. Its crazy to have some 11 year old kid make a hard move up higher on the wall while Mr. untrained so and so spots him...
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am amazed and bewildered that anyone would be a proponent of not having spotters. Anyone ever grease off a hold, blow a foot? (I've even broken holds) any one of those scenarios results in an unpredictable outcomes NONE of which could ever be accounted for with proper setting. Even proper padding isn't going to keep someone from getting hurt if they land on their head.
These are kids that we are talking about NO amount of competition is worth anyone of them getting hurt. Climbing is inherently dangerous and unpredictable even in this somewhat controlled environment. You can't prepare or be prepared for it. You need spotters properly trained ones
@william.... Fall and roll Really? Falling shouldn't be an option falling should be a condition that occurs when the body can't complete the intended movement. In other words at no time should the climber be thinking about how to safely fall. If they are, they aren't concentrating hard enough.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Looking across the ABS Nationals field of entrants, how many kids are practicing on 20' tall bouldering walls? and without spotters? I've watched this trend for taller bouldering grow over the past couple years. Yes, its entertaining to watch. At what length does a boulder problem turn into a route? Two more moves can be huge in these power endurance situations. I hope I can sell the need to heighten our walls and thicken our floor padding to our gym owner.
A note on the venue: The setup was awesome, spectators and parents loved it, iso could have been a little more secure, witnessed a coach who didn't know he was not supposed to have a phone in iso (COME ON!).
I really hope the USAC uses this format to branch the sport outside of Boulder. I understand having the event in Boulder keeps USAC travel costs down, but with a portable wall we could take this event anywhere! To promote the sport, go where climbers live, but don't see a lot of large competitions. Places like Texas, Chicago, Seattle, Tennessee, etc. Or go somewhere unique; the beach, an urban park, Disney World.
Posted 1 year ago # -
LAS VEGAS!
Posted 1 year ago # -
nice Tyson, take the kids to Vegas!!!!!
Posted 1 year ago # -
seriously, we have been talking about this for years. it would be spectacular.
warehouse space is cheap to rent. people to work and build are cheap. great hotels are cheap. open spectating to the general public and a little promotion, next thing you know you have 7500 people from off the streets/on vacation getting psyched on kids going huge. people are in vegas to be entertained and it would be easy for people to take the time to come watch. or do a run with the open category first. it would be awesome.Posted 1 year ago # -
Your are right Tyson, I just thought it ironic that we would send a bunch of kids to Vegas!
Posted 1 year ago # -
@ Herman- When my climber fell he would have been completely fine had the spotter not been standing directly under him. I still can't see the setters being able to intervene in that exact moment to prevent what happened.
It's too bad that USAC is so strapped for volunteers that they end up pulling anyone from the crowd and it results in poor spotting and injuries. You would think that with Boulder being the "mecca" of climbing USAC could possibly call upon some pro climbers who know what spotting is for (it's called spotting not catching) to lend a hand for part of the day. How pumped would the kids be to be spotted by their idols?
My kids do not climb with spotters in the gym and our top-out boulder is 18' tall. They do however ask for a spotter when there is a funky move that may cause them to blow off at a weird angle. I didn't see many moves at nats that had super funky moves up high.
Vegas would be cool! Maybe we could get the cirque du soleil people to come out and climb on the walls, they would probably crush!
Posted 1 year ago # -
"USAC could possibly call upon some pro climbers who know what spotting is for (it's called spotting not catching) to lend a hand for part of the day. How pumped would the kids be to be spotted by their idols? "
love this idea
Posted 1 year ago # -
Second that! SnM
Posted 1 year ago # -
@ Tyson, Couldn't agree more.
@ M.Rougeux
You wrote:
>When my climber fell he would have been completely fine had the spotter not been standing directly under him. I still can't see the setters being able to intervene in that exact moment to prevent what happened.
Offcourse you are correct that -at that moment- nobody, not even a setter could do something.But the chief setter is part of the competition jury and he can do something about people spotting bad. E.g. get the jury president to replace them. But replace with who?
The setting team, and in fact the chief route setter has the responsability to check with the organisation before starting the routesetting wether or not there are enough good spotters. If there aren't (and I understand that there are never enough good spotters) then the setters should build the boulders so that no spotters are needed. AND they should build the boulders so that the judges / organization feels that no spotters are needed (which, isn't the same by definition).
so the setters do have responsability for the next comp.
@offroute
In most cases where something extra-ordinary happens you are too late when spotting. Even the spotter needs a certain reaction time. If you want to be on time if something out of the ordanary happens you are too close for comfort anyway. probably resulting in the same problems as in this comp.To sum up my opinion:
The wall and boulders should be constructed with the idea that there are no spotters. probably that will reduce the wall height and the possible moves somewhat.Posted 1 year ago # -
Tyson, it seems that you were on to something... http://www.epusa.com/news.php?id=66
Posted 1 year ago # -
A quick question about setting styles. The coach for our team said that he noticed similarity in styles or movement across the divisions. By this he meant that in particular divisions the problems were dynamic and in other divisions the style differed. I am curious if the setters got together and worked out specific goals and plans for the different ages, sizes, strengths ect or if the planning had more to do with the particular grades? Can we get some more detailed info from about of the setting team? I'd like to be able to better prepare the kids for next year and the more I know the better I can set to prepare.
Thanks guys
Cranky
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hello All-
Having chiefed this event I feel I have some insight to add to the conversations here. I will try hard to address everything mentioned thus far. I am psyched there is discussion on the event and very willing to participate in any constructive conversation on the event and how it was run from a routesetting point of view.
There were many new aspects to our event for the youth this year. As everyone knows this was the first year we were out of a gym setting and into a location that would better suit the crowds that these events draw with people coming from all of the country for a National event. Our main challenge as a youth crew was melding the new wall and an additional round of competition (semi-finals) with 10 categories of youth climbers. Although the wall was inspiring in its design, it was essentially designed for adult competitions where there are two categories, Open Men and Women. With a lack of space came the necessity of ‘running changeovers’. There are essentially two ways of looking at this. We are either a team of monkeys changing holds all chaotic-like while people climb next to us and our net of hazards, or we are a very sick looking and efficient routesetting pit crew. I would like to think that we looked more like the latter. I heard many comments that our changeover added to the ‘show’. I do think that this gives people more of an education as to what the setters do at these events. Unfortunately it is still lost on some people. What are you gonna do??
With so many climbs and so little wall it is also hard to get everything back up on the wall in between rounds for tweaks. This makes it even more imperative that we know the field and know our problems well enough to tweak parts of climbs in order to further separate the field as we progress from round to round. All in all I believe we did a great job. No super finals at all!!
Spotters
As many people have mentioned it is our job as the setting team to set safe problems, and to alert the judges and spotters as to the nuances of scoring as well as spotting and where it may be more necessary on any given problem. I can assure everyone that this is something we pay a lot of attention to as we set and throughout the competition during every round. It is my opinion that spotters are not necessary for most of the problems. Often they are not trained and more in the way than anything else. For the younger categories it does give them a certain level of confidence to have spotters. When we send the D category even ¾ of the way up the 22ft. wall it is akin to me (6’ tall) soloing our gym walls at just under 40’ ft. tall. I do wish that we would implement, within USAC, some sort of spotter check through similar to our belay check through at roped Nationals. Just to clarify, we did identify the best spotters and place them where they were most needed.
Slab
No slab?? Really?? It is our job to test all abilities and styles. Sorry all, the slab is here to stay. I will always vote for slab at comps if anyone asks me. Anyone who says it is boring to watch is straight wrong. Tenuous technical climbing can be way more exciting than watching climbers thug out a waved roof, which they do at their own gym all day everyday. I would like to think that the coaches come away from these events with new ideas of what to train their teams to expect at these events. The more they see at practice, local events, Regionals, and Divisionals the more we can push the boundaries. In case anyone forgot the D’s are now doing rose dynos, drive by dynos, and reading sequence better than some of the older categories.
Falling
Yes, there is a good way to fall and you can be good at falling. Fall and roll??? Yes. When setting at Teva a few years ago we specifically adopted this technique ala Judo or even Volleybally in order to save our knees when repeatedly falling from 20’ while forerunning. If falling is inevitable then why not teach kids how to do it better.
Styles
As the setting team we do coordinate and try our very best to present myriad of styles to the competitors. At this event we tried to get all of the categories on all of the different wall sections as well. I am sure that we could continue to do a better job at this.
All is all I was very psyched on the event and very happy to have such a capable and psyched crew to work with. We learn more every year. The kids always get stronger. Sometimes they get smarter too in their climbing. I hope that gives some insight into the questions/issues everyone has brought up thus far.
Luke Bertelsen
Posted 1 year ago # -
Luke, thanks very much for the elaborate response, I appreciate all the effort both behind the scenes and behind, behind the scenes. I hope that you will continue to engage in conversation here as I feel that many of these "elite" setters are sitting back reading all our randomness and pity-ing us all. (I speak for myself obviously)
thanks again!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Although I wasn't there, I heard great things about the comp! I did hear people complain about finals slab problems, which is ridiculous. Slab is another test of diverse climbing technique that should be challenged especially at the national level, thus not just a strong climber, physically, but also a strong climber in the sense that he/she can adapt to any terrain or style and climb it well.
I was also curious, keep in mind I wasn't there, but I heard coaches saying kids were dynoing for the finish. Was it actually set for a finishing move dyno or is it becuase the climber felt like it? (Finishing move dynos should be saved for Open catgories, in my opinion. Injuries to youth climbers who have so many more years of climbing ahead of them is a damn shame. :/
Posted 1 year ago # -
i do not believe that a dyno is more dangerous as a finish move than say, any other move.
dynos for children are A.O.K. in my book. i encourage this.
and kyle, your suck asstimbers are going down this weekend.Posted 1 year ago # -
Maybe.
and You wish the Sounders packed a pair big enough bring down the almighty Timbers.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Luke-
Thanks alot for the insight.
Posted 1 year ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.