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1. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   I've had people come to me before saying that some of my routes and problems have an awkward move in them, but when they tell me which move is 'awkward' it's because they don't think about how to move their body so it has more 'flow'. Some people even get mad because they feel i put too many awkward movements into some of my sets. When I set these problems, i never feel as though the moves are awkward. Some of them are difficult, yes, but none of them put the body in such a position that causes pain, nor leaves one feeling upset.

   So, my question is this. Am I really not paying attention to other people when I set, or do the other people that try these moves just not climbing correctly. Also, how can I find a happy medium that doesn't mean setting mindless 'flowing' problems?

   Posted 9 months ago #

2. Vincent
   Member

   I think one of the most common things that lead to this, is setting advanced movement on non-advanced climbs. For example... you shouldn't expect a 5.8 climb to require a cross throughs, high high steps, etc..

   Posted 9 months ago #

3. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   Good point, I used to do this all the time. Stopped that habit quickly.

   However, by the time someone is climbing V5/6 would that be a factor? It's not like you can easily set a V8 or 9 move in a 5 without bumping the grade up some.

   Posted 9 months ago #

4. Vincent
   Member

   From my experience, bouldering is different.. I know many climbers who boulder mostly and can easily do most V5s and higher.. but then they struggle on 5.11s ... it's easy for them to just power through the moves with minimal technique but then they gas out quick, lacking the strategic technical abilities to get all the way to the top.

   Used to be that the one hardest move was enough to rate the climb. But since sport climbing has gotten so much steeper... the grades are figured more often now on the collective difficulty of all of the moves. Red River Gorge has many good examples of that.

   I also know many climbers who can tear up 5.12s all day, but struggle on V4s and V5s.

   Posted 9 months ago #

5. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   That's all true and great, but when in bouldering does movement be 'awkward'?
   Does anyone have any examples of setting that produces an awkward movement in a problem, or is it just movement that doesn't 'flow' like everybody expects?

   Then there's the question, does too many awkward moves in ones' problem mean bad setting, or is it just a style others aren't used to in gym environments?

   And another, could a series of non-flowing movements, where the route/problem requires one to change mental states (power/endurance/technique) and physical movement (big/small/quick/slow) constantly, be considered flowing (due to the general overall lack of flow, it all seems to work)?

   Posted 9 months ago #

6. Vincent
   Member

   .... yeah it's all style.
   Flow ... like defining any aspect of art (and also like route grades) is subjective.

   When I talk about a climbing route having flow, it is more about easy and predictable movements from one position to the next.
   For hands; no awkward matching, friendly angles,... etc.
   For feet; putting footholds right where the natural flagging position would be, ...etc.

   I've seen that routes with these traits (particularly in the easier grades (< 5.12)) tend to get more positive reactions / comments from climbers.
   However...
   If all the routes in a gym flowed great according to any one persons criteria, I think the lack of diversity would get boring fast.

   Variety and diversity is a beautiful thing! :-)

   Posted 9 months ago #

7. Cranky
   Member

   I think there are a few things you can watch for when setting. One thing is the transitions between moves. Setters often look at the moves but neglect to provide a smooth transition from one move to the next. If a climber is required to smear and then step up to a foot hold (which I do all the time outside) it can feel awkward especially on moderate routes. Another thing that can slow the flow of a route is matching feet or hands too often. Foot matches on small feet can really slow down a new climber.

   Just my two cents...

   Cranky.

   Posted 9 months ago #

8. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   Just had an idea Cranky. What if every hand hold you use is a crossing match. Then the flow wouldn't be messed up but the climber would have to think about how they are going to move in oder to always get the right cross in the match.

   And I know what you mean by transitions, also, I see some people with very little setting experience set just one sequence of 4 moves they happen to come up with, setting the holds to their comfort, and calling that a problem.

   Oh the woes of volunteer setters.

   Posted 9 months ago #

9. helen
   Member

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   Posted 9 months ago #

10. Steve W.
    Member

    "Awkward movement", like climbing grades, is subjective. One climber's "awkward movement" is another climber's "rad futuristic beta". There of course is always the possibility that the climbers who are bashing you are just ego-driven and placing blame of their failures on your sets.

    However, that being said, there's always room for critique. "Awkward" is very vague to describe a climb, so next time someone tells you that, ask for a specific example and why it's awkward (if they can't tell you, they're probably just whining). Here are some things I look for when I check my sets:

    1. DOES THE CLIMB NEED FEET? 90% of the time, you can never have enough feet, and this is probably the most common issue regarding awkward climbs. Forcing people to switch feet, smear, or campus all the time actually makes the climb very jerky unless your switching feet/smearing/campusing is justifiable.

    2. DOES YOUR HOLD PLACEMENT FOR EACH MOVE MAKE SENSE?
    Example:
    a. You forced a left hand move to a good hold
    b. You then force a right hand move to a bad hold
    c. You want the next move after that to be a forced left hand, so you choose to put up a small one-hand crimp

    This is considered "awkward" because for a gym set, it doesn't make sense. Because c. is a forced left hand, you are forcing the climber to come off of a good hold while launching off of the right hand which is still on a bad hold - climbers will want to do the other way around instead. Hence when you set a sequence like this, it doesn't feel right and it becomes "awkward".

    3. IS YOUR CLIMB CONSIDERED "OUTDOORSY"? This can be a fun set depending on your beta, but for the most part, it's a bad assessment. "Outdoorsy" ideally shouldn't exist in a gym (unless you deliberately set a simulated bad route/problem), mainly because it's not ergonomic - it's tweaky, it's sharp/painful, it has a very futuristic beta, it hurts your back, whatever. Remember that climbers probably won't blame nature for making the rocks painful/awkward, but they will bash the hell out of a setter's ego for the exact same climb.

    4. CAN EVERYONE MAKE THE MOVES? If you notice that, for example, shorter people are doing your climbs more easily than the taller folks, even if they climb around the same grade, then something needs tweaking. You could have made your feet either too high or too low, or moves that are *drum roll* too reachy. Remember that not everyone is as flexible or as tall as you are. Ideally you want everyone of every height to be able to do your climbs, not just contortionists.

    Posted 9 months ago #

11. Molly Beard
    Member

    Hey STO,
    So as most are agreeing 'awkward' is subjective and hard to descibe in detail. I fully agree that moves that are painful, reach dependent, and/or too complex for a given grade will readily qualify as such.

    So how to start seeing this as a setter? Watch. Watch. Watch. What are the beginner climbers doing? What moves do they pause at? Stop on? What moves do they skip? Now look at the intermediate folks, now the advanced....

    If there is a certain move or sequence that most folks in a group have trouble with, this likely qualifies as awkward.

    I think there is absolutely a place for funky climbing in a gym, just as long as it represents a small percentage of the routes/blocs. Remember that your job as a commercial setter is to make the customers have fun and want to return, basicly you should be wanting to make them happy. My definition of happy customers are folks who look forward to climbing your routes/blocs over and over again.

    Good luck!

    Posted 9 months ago #

12. kinz
    Member

    i second molly's sentiment. the best feedback a route setter can ever receive comes from simply watching climbers of every style and ability level climb your routes. you will begin to see what sort of movement is appropriate for your customer base at every level and then be able to move forward from there.

    Posted 9 months ago #

13. Steve W.
    Member

    Molly and kinz pretty much nailed it dead on. The best setters are hardly ever defined as having a particular "style" of setting. They are in-tune with what the climbers, the gym, and even expected competitors want/need and they set towards that respect, and they all start out by simply observing and taking notes.

    Posted 9 months ago #

14. Brannon
    Member

    There have been times when a gym regular would comment on a route I set being awkward and I would set my next route just for them. Something with a similar move but knocked down a grade or two. Let them figure out the technique on the easier route for them to be successful on the harder one. Doing this requires (as others have pointed out) watching your customers, figure out what they need and make them happy. The best part about this is that you don't have to tell them what you are doing...just do it and they will figure it out. The key being getting them to share better feedback then "it's awkward."

    I like to think of it like a menu at a nice restaurant. If the chef fills the menu with nothing but old heavy french classics or items like urchin roe with fried marrow, most folks will walk by and look for a place that makes a nice steak. Give the people a well cooked steak and eventually they will come back for your expensive seafood trio.

    There are very few "famous" setters. There are plenty of "notorious" ones though. Strive towards the former.

    Posted 9 months ago #

15. Herman
    Member

    In addition to everything else that has been set ask yourselve this question:

    Do your problems teach movements to the climbers or do your problems test wether a climber can do the move?

    The last option can be further specified. does it test wether the climber has that movement in it's repertoire or does it test wether the climber is strong enough in that repertoire.

    Posted 8 months ago #

16. Grasper
    Member

    Herman, you posted the following:

    "Do your problems teach movements to the climbers or do your problems test wether a climber can do the move?"

    This is an interesting question. What are its implications? (Why do you ask?)

    In other words, do you think one of these options you gave is better than the other?
    Couldn't both be important?
    Under what circumstances would each be important?

    If I understand correctly, you are comparing:
    1) 'smooth' execution of a challenging move to
    2) a move whose execution requires a great amount of strength

    These would both be relative to the targeted grade of the route. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    PS> By the term "smooth" above, I mean that when the climber executes the move, he/she is not too crunched up. The holds would be in proportion to the anthropometrics of your targeted climber.

    Posted 8 months ago #

17. Herman
    Member

    I posted so that people would think of the implications / the differences.

    The one or the other is not better or worse, although if you only have routes in the Gym that "test" not many climbers will be getting better. If you have lots of routes that teach, the climbers will know lot's of moves but might not be able to use them at the correct time (test).

    The main difference between the two is that if there is a weird move, and a small hold, and the first time in the route that that move has to be executed you don't give any hints to the climber on what he needs to do, and you make it hard for him because the hold is small. You only test if he can do it. you don't teach anything.

    Compare this to a route where you a)first have to do a little cross from and to a good hold and having two footholds placed exactly right for a backstep. then b) the same move for the other hand then c) the same move but the second feet is missing then d) a deeper cross with both feet.
    Using this second option the climbers will naturally (subconsious instead of conscious) feel how to make the move, even higher up the route where the moves might be as difficult as the moves in a "test" Route.

    So a teach route will help the climber understand a move (e.g. backstep, cross, dynamic, bump, drapeau (Flag behind), cancan (flag in front), left-left), or a commitment (holding on a small ledge, stand on friction, power through a difficult section, move around a scary wall section, the first lead climb) , by presenting the challenging in the easiest way possible by using things as repetition, clarity (no other options possible), flow (you automatically put your feed there) or even by giving a hint in the routes name "the up and down rollercoaster".

    A test route just isn't bothered with all these kind of stuff and you leave all to the climber to figure out how to do it. Offcourse he can learn from this, but he probably won't make his first egyptian in such a route as he can't manage to hold on to the hold AND make the egyption AND show the commitment to really pull hard on the sharp ledge AND aim for the pocket.

    In most cases the difference between a test route and a teach route is not so black and white, and even sections of the same route can teach while other sections test. I've exagerated a little to make my point

    Posted 8 months ago #

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