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1. ckzch
   Member

   Agree or Disagree?

   When preparing for competitions, I like to know who will be helping me do the setting. Whether it will be experienced, creative, balanced routesetters or new, excited employees breaking into their first comp experience. This tells me the amount of work I will have to do, and how to budget my time for each stage of the game.

   For instance, this week I am preparing for a competion, mostly roped routes, a few bouldering problems. I walk into the gym and see a wall cleaned and stripped and find a new route on it. This route has 7 new, quality holds and is not quite finished. The wall it is on covers about 35 feet including the added length for the overhanging nature of the wall. These 7 holds are in almost a straight line up the middle of the wall. A Dihedral style climb that eliminates most of the difficulty associated with the angle [because of steming ability]. While the quality of the route may be satisfactory, the overall look of the movement suggests the same moves are repeated often. I do not want to discourage this person from setting, especially when help is needed for competitions, but in this case, is their setting doing more harm than good? Having to go back and edit the route creating a more asthetic, flowing, sequence will take time. Do I strip the route, appoligize and explain, or, try to help this setter along and take the time, which is precious, to refine the route with their approval?

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. Cranky
   Member

   I know it is a fine line with new setters between helping out and slowing you down. If you want their help and want them to improve you have to spend a bit of time giving them direction.

   I will let new setters set one or two easy problems which I will usually have to edit. I try and do the edit with them there and explain what I am doing and why. Some times everything gets changed except the start hold but I try to highlight their contributions. I recommend having the new setters do a bunch of forerunning and maybe stripping and cleaning of holds. Letting the new guy forerun also helps to make them feel included. The type of comp makes a difference in how much you can have them do. I local comp is easier for a new setter to work than a more intense comp. Head route setters have to be teachers some times, otherwise the learning curve for settering in much longer.

   Good luck

   Cranky

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. Brannon
   Member

   The first red flag for me was the fact that there was a new setter putting up a route without your input/permission. Maybe I'm just missing something from your original post but it sounds like this new setter should have known to check with you before doing anything.

   A comp is not a good time for hand holding or teaching the basics of setting. If I have a newer (not new) setter working a comp I want to make sure that they have plenty of direction, have talked to me about the idea for their route, and understand that their comp route will likely be edited by myself or other senior setter.

   Cranky got it right...there are lots of other ways to get very green setters involved.

   Trying to teach a new setter during a comp will only stress you out and lead to more routes that might need to be tweaked or reset to maintain the highest quality.

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. Aaron Gibson
   Member

   I support and encourage new setters - not everyone is interested so it's nice to see when someone really is. I always tell them at the outset that setting appears easy, especially when you see someone do it well (someone who has been doing it a long time), but in fact it takes a LOT of practice to get good at it. Not just the creative part, which I also believe takes practice, but the physical process of positioning and attaching the holds takes some practice to gain efficiency.

   I also tell them, nicely, to expect and be open to constructive criticism. Meaning, if they put up something that doesn't work I'm going to tell them some things to change to make it better. Some people handle criticism better than others, but I find it essential in the learning process of setting - in terms of being a good student, to be open to listening to other ideas and willing to make adjustments when necessary.

   Comp time is a difficult time to have patience with new setters. You should expect some "new setter style" routes - and at the same time expect to change them, either yourself, or through detailed direction (i.e. take that hold off, move that one there, spin that one to 3 o'clock, create an undercling crux sequence there, etc.)

   I'd say, if you don't have the time to give that sort of direction - or have the time for the new-setter learning curve, it's probably best to leave them out for now - or delegate them to an alternate role (hold cleaner or go-fer).

   I am working with some brand new setters right now and I give them quite a bit of leeway. I let them make their own mistakes and figure things out as they go. It takes them three times as long to set a route and usually I have to go back and change some stuff but they appreciate the opportunity and are open and willing to listen and learn.

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. ckzch
   Member

   @ Brannon and Cranky
   Yeah there were a few things I missed:

   Not a new setter, just new to comp setting. (I saw in the past some good things in terms of the bouldering routes this person set and encouraged them to try a route for the comp.).
   Also, what I was looking for was personal reactions i.e. whether it be immediate editing or total scrbing of the route, or trying to retrace steps with the setter to find a happy balance in the route.
   I think what I will do to get my new setters involved is have them tape all the comp routes and forerun what I cannont get to, enabling them to see the different sequences and changes from normal everyday setting. After I would like to see their reactions and how they think those routes differ from their own. After all, nobody likes to do nothing but strip walls and repair spinners.

   Thanks for the input and advice.

   @ Aaron
   I think your post sums it all up, this is what I have tried to stick to, sometimes things get in the way of that, but as setters we have to remember, our value is in the services we offer and what happens when we are gone? who takes over? there has to be a place for the new guy, and who better to train them.

   P.S. sorry for the header misspelling

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. Fred
   Member

   I normally have some new guys helping me on every comp.
   In Europe(at least Portugal) people dont take seriously the setting job, or think they can also do it with their climbing experience.
   So it takes me lots of time explaining why I'm doing this or that or why I have to change that.
   I always ask them to explain me what they are planning to set and to show me the holds before setting. And I do some ajusts or correct an idea in a way they feel is their boulder and their way, giving them the tools do evaluate on the next time and to do a better job.
   Sometimes things get a bit bitter with forerunners and setters not understanding that a route is too hard, the move to long, to weird..., and I had to impose myself to save the comp from a disaster, and in those situations you must be in control seeing the whole picture abstracting yourself from being tired, under stress or it to be a matter of personal taste.
   I often let one or two boulders/routes I dont like that much to pass, but only if they do their job (even if they dont look as I wanted to) in the comp

   its a tricky terrain and trickier when you work with unpaid personal cause you want people to feel good and to have a good experience

   Fred

   Posted 2 years ago #

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