Double Taping and Aesthetic Considerations

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Double Taping and Aesthetic Considerations

(14 posts) (8 voices)

Started 9 months ago by syedhali
Latest reply from syedhali

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syedhali
Member

As a climber I really hate walking into a new gym and seeing half the boulder problems and routes are just double taped hybrids of the already existing climbs. I'm not just talking about taping existing feet, but giant hands with plenty of open t-nut options everywhere around them. Also, I'm not sure how many people here tape under the hold before tightening the climbing hold (it makes it easier to see what needs to be replaced and where when people start violently kicking at your tape), but I didn't realize how little thought some could put into the aesthetics of a route (taping, hold orientation, hold selection...).

Double taping abuse and unclean taping habits are especially hard to iron out of trade-setters that are trying to be efficient with their time, but don't realize they are bringing down the overall quality of the gym.

For a better idea of what I mean...
Good = Earth Treks and Planet Granite

Bad = You'll know when you can't tell what route or boulder problem you're on

(This looks okay now, but give it 2 weeks of use)

At my gym this is really only a problem with the boulder area, but does this bother anyone else? Have any of you lead and headsetters had to talk to your setters about this?

Posted 9 months ago #
Yo Chi
Member

At my gym double taping of feet is generally allowed in the bouldering cave (not so much on routes), and we try to avoid double taping anything else. Occasionally a large feature might get double taped, but again, that's the exception to the rule. Our headsetter frowns on double taping and we do a fairly good job of policing ourselves, but he's more lenient when it happens in the cave. We have a verrrry limited amount of space for bouldering so we have to try and maximize the utility of that space as much as we can.

Aesthetic taping considerations in our cave take a backseat to problem density and getting the most bouldering possible out of the tiny nook that we have for it. We haven't implemented a uniform taping direction policy before, but some of our setters have tried taping all in one direction in the past. There was a mixed reception to it; I'm not sure though if that was because it was simply different from what we had been doing, or if it was because tape was more difficult to spot while on some problems. It doesn't really bother me, but I'm used to bouldering caves with a million holds up and tape everywhere. I can see how that could be confusing though.

Posted 9 months ago #
Brannon
Member

When I was a head setter I was very strict in not allowing double taping. My primary concern was allowing holds to be left on the wall for month after month as the same hold gets double taped over and over. If the double taped hold remains on the wall getting covered in chalk and shoe rubber to the point that the texture gets ruined and the hold is permanently stained. Add to this the aesthetic issue and the confusing nature that comes from tons of tape on the wall, there are very few excuses for double taping.

My only exception is XXL holds and volumes, as long as the routes using the hold are of approximately the same vinatage...don't go and put a route through a huge hold that is on the last week of its life.

Posted 9 months ago #
Theo907
Member

As Head Setter at our gym I allow co-taping. We take down whole walls at a time, so the routes are always the same age, or "vintage". I do see where some are coming from as far as the look of the wall, but we just do not have that much room and when a move needs a foot and there is already a foot where it should be, I would much rather the route have a pleasant feel than a pleasant look. And we do put the tape under the holds, definitely helps keep it there even if its getting stepped on.

Posted 9 months ago #
Lloyd King
Member

When I view the above illustrations #1 Good #2 Bad.

The first thing that comes to mind is;

#2 Pee Wee`s playhouse. Great for stimulating kids and youth via birthday parties and school groups that are looking for an experience (or a ride). Very confusing and somewhat annoying to the adept climbing facility user.

#1 Catalogued. A very tight system that is easily read and understood. Can kids follow this catalogued uniform taping system? Well, of course they can. They are kids and kids absorb quicker than bounce quicker picker uppers! As well, your adept climbing facility users will appreciate and respect the good work being implemented in you're Climbing Facility.

So #1 the Catalogued approach is a winner for both user groups.

I am on board with Brannon as far as the double taping jobs go. Route Setters are not producing the best work they are capable of creating. Every shift the route setting task is on the "to do list". This is a crucial time to be adding and contributing new sequences and moves to a Climbing Facility through clean grips. A wall of any particular angle that is totally stacked, has so much to offer.

At our Climbing Facility we have moved away from the krazy taping themes. Plain and simple solid primary and Tertiary color. Fat strips to identify our Boulder Problems on the Circuit and Skinny strips to identify the Routes in our Rooster. If the Route Setting is good and above par. All the stimuli that needs to be created will be derived from the climbing. Mitigate the seizure inducing Hell(o) Kitty tape jobs!

Keep raising the bar.

Posted 9 months ago #
Steve W.
Member

Call me OCD, but I actually take this very seriously when problems go up on my bouldering walls. Double-taping is a no-no 99% of the time, with exceptions. Here are some of my points and reasoning:

1. DOUBLE TAPING = LAZY SETTING. Unless your gym/wall is strapped for holds (and professionally I think there's a much bigger problem if you're THAT tight on holds that you'd have to double tape every hold on your wall), double taping is bad work ethic. Good setting means that every hold, whether it's a hand or foot hold, should be set according to your route. Even foot chips should be directional and specific to your set. If you re-use another hold, chances are that hold is going to be off in angle, orientation, etc. Most of the time, double-taping is due to the setter being lazy. They can argue that it's the only bolt that works with his beta, but you can always work around by adjusting the beta and moving the holds just a little bit. Honestly there's really no excuse.

The ONLY time I allow double taping is on giant holds and volumes to better utilize the available space on the wall. For example, the Rockwerx volumes (Boob, Growth, Spore) and some Motavation volumes.

2. TAPING IS LIKE PUTTING THE SHINY CHERRY ON TOP. In a professional sense, even if you set a great route/problem, it's not going to be as apparent and climbed on if your customers' eyes aren't attracted by it. 9 out of 10 times, people are attracted to routes by pure aesthetics. There's no denying this. Ever notice that routes with giant, heavily features holds have more climbers on it then ones with smaller, older-looking holds, regardless of how well it's set? A well-taped route is one effective way you can attract climbers to your climb. It's like.. putting the shiny frame around your painting. Would you sell to your clients your painting on a flimsy piece of paper, or would you put it in a solid frame and attract more customers to it?

3. TAPING AT CRAZY ANGLES. Most climbers don't have tunnel vision. Climbers will be able to see which hold goes to which climb without the tape being at crazy angles. Whenever I see a setter put tapes at ridiculous angles, like totally horizontal or even straight up.. I mean really? At those angles, it's just asking for shoes to rip them off the walls. A rule of thumb I tell my setters to use is, from the tape being at a 90 degree, straight down position, you don't need to angle the tape more than 45 degrees in either direction.

Now some people will argue that "Oh, well, tape still gets ripped off anyways even if I angle them straight down." If you tape everything correctly (read point #4), aside from flopping feet of new climbers, the only time I see tape being ripped off soon after it's set is if.. are you ready?.. it's double-taped on a hold (another reason why double-taping is bad).

4. TAPE NEEDS LOVE TOO. Brush your damn tape. No seriously, do it. The glue on the back of the tape isn't super glue. You need to actually put your thumb, or even better a brush, and brush/smear the tape that you put on, especially if your walls are textured. Just slapping on a piece of tape and hope that it'll hold its own to the countless hands and feet that'll graze by it is just ignorant.

Try this little experiment. Put two pieces of tape of the same color next to each other. Brush/smear one of them and compared the two. Do you notice a difference?

5. ROUTE TAPE IS LIKE YOUR UNDERWEAR. Sometimes no matter how well you place them, it's going to be at the mercy of a badly placed foot, and needs to be changed. If you want your gym to look and be as professional as possible, the walls need to LOOK the part. That means globs of mangled taped on the wall and pieces of fallen tape on the floor needs to be fixed and cleaned up. The point is, if you are running a gym that its main objective is to attract customers and make money, it needs to take in account even details such as this, just like all the other types of businesses out there.

The list can go on, but I'll stop here. While I absolutely respect some gym's attention to detail and its headsetters in initializing a guideline to keep the bar high in routesetting standards, there are other gyms where I wonder if they are taking their business seriously. Basics such as keeping your main product in high quality and top condition is essential, and they are wondering if they need new carpet to attract more customers...

-Steve

Posted 9 months ago #
Yo Chi
Member

Under ideal conditions I would agree with pretty much everything that Steve said. However, comparing the amount of space that CRG has to work with compared to the bouldering space that is available at the gym that I set at is almost apples to oranges. I would estimate that Vertical Endeavors - Warrenville, IL has perhaps a tenth of the space that CRG - Hadley, MA has for bouldering. When holds are clustered incredibly densely and are occupying what seems like every t-nut at times, it makes it very difficult to tape every hold with the tape at the same angle. Compound that with a wall design that's at least ten years old (lots of mini-breaks, a lack of clean overhangs and consistent angles, odd wall texture that likes to spit off even brushed on tape, etc.), and it gets harder still.

Double-taping does happen at my gym for feet, and rarely with volumes as well. It's nearly never tolerated otherwise for holds that are used as hands. Why is it reluctantly allowed in our facility with feet in the bouldering area though? I'm not arguing that it's the only foot/bolt that works with the beta, I'm arguing that every t-nut within a several foot radius of that is already filled in too, so if you want to set a problem that even remotely crosses certain spans of the cave double-taping of feet becomes a sometimes necessary evil. The problem density in our cave is very high. Very. Again, I wish it didn't have to be that way, but when you're given a confined space you have to make the most of that resource.

Mostly I wish that they would fix the lighting for our cave, but I'll probably see a unicorn prancing by on its hindlegs before that happens.

Last but not least, when I look at that Earth Treks picture I see good taping, but from my warped and climbing-deprived midwestern viewpoint I also see a massive amount of wasted space. I think people at newer, larger, and more well planned out facilities don't know how good they have it sometimes.

Posted 9 months ago #
Steve W.
Member

Good points Yo Chi, and well thought out. But keep in mind that I didn't always set at CRG. I've set for 4 other gyms before CRG, and a few smaller walls at colleges and whatnot, and usually followed the same guidelines. What it really comes down to is how attentive and professional are the setters and the rate of the rotation of setting. You can sacrifice having a dense wall with a much more frequent rotation of stripping and setting. That way, climbers will have enough to climb and a fresh section of problems is always up in the works. At CRG, we strip and set a section every week, and while it may not be possible for some gyms to do the same due to staffing and etc., leaving routes up for 2 months or more is, IMO, a bit slow.

It's very true that newer and bigger gyms do have it somewhat easier. But even older and/or smaller gyms can benefit from a more frequent rotation, especially if holds selection is a bit tight. Bottom line: less dense, faster rotation.

One habit that I also notice that a lot of gyms do is that they cram and pack as much holds as possible on the wall, to use all the available t-nuts, and then leave it up for months at a time, sometimes well over a year! This is not be the best solution to get a larger variety of climbs as opposed to just frequenting your setting. A controlled distribution of routes/boulder problems is also very important. Believe it or not, there is such a thing as having TOO many routes/boulder problems up (holds used versus climb rate). For example, at CRG in Worcester, MA, our walls waiver between 40-45 boulder problems at all times with grades well-distributed across the scale (V2-V5s being our money makers). We don't set more than it is needed to blanket the walls evenly simply for the reasons that 1. with our setting rotation, there is no need to set more, and 2. it offers a much cleaner appearance, and wall maintenance is less required.

P.S. - I do agree with you regarding that picture of Earth Trek. I like to keep my walls clean, but that is a lot of space left that can be utilized. And don't even get me started with lighting. Going with the whole aesthetics appeal of climbing walls, IMO it doesn't matter how good the stickers look if you can't even tell the difference blue, black, and brown. Good lighting = FTW.

Posted 9 months ago #
ejw
Member

Pretty much 100% agree with Steve's comments. Double taping at an absolute minimum, consistent tape angles (4:20/7:40), and keep it sharp. Aesthetics are a huge part of setting for me and our gym is definitely keen on keeping things looking professional.
FYI that first picture is of Planet Granite, not Earth Treks. It is funny that PG was mentioned though, because our head setter previously set for PG for years. This is a quick shot of ET Rockville-

Posted 9 months ago #
Yo Chi
Member

Ah, I assumed that it was of Earth Treks since that was the name listed first above the picture. My mistake EJW, sorry. Steve, I totally agree with you about needing a constant rotation. We try to keep the boulder problem turnaround time around 4-6 weeks depending on the amount of traffic that a problem sees and its popularity with the community (each problem is dated, graded, and initialed when it is set to help with tracking and accountability). Whether that's quick enough or not I don't know though, and to be honest we probably do have too many problems crammed into too small of a space regardless. I think that at any given time we might have around 30+ problems up...which is a bit ridiculous when you think about how small our bouldering space is. Maybe a 4 week or less rotation time with a few less problems would work better. Hmm. That's something to think about, and I'll definitely run it by my head-setter.

PS - Thanks to everyone who has chimed in here, in my opinion discussion like this is a big part of why routesetter is awesome.

Posted 9 months ago #
Steve W.
Member

EJW: I THOUGHT that bit of wall looked a little familiar. I apologize on my part as well for not realizing that it's PG and not Earth Trek. And the density of holds in that picture is pretty much perfect. Clean taping, walls filled well enough to utilize the wall space, but not so much that I'm going to get a seizure trying to find the holds on a route.

Yeah it's very easy to be so psyched on setting, especially when you have enthusiastic, new setters that just want to throw holds on the wall, that you forget to take a step back and look at the wall as a whole. Many times my setters/apprentices would get so excited on a new beta that they've thought up or they see and want to use a brand new hold/feature, that they don't know how to set according to the pace of our setting rotation, and I'd have to play the bad cop and deny them the satisfaction until our next set.

If you'd like, try this Yo Chi. Set by sections, say.. once every week. Once it's stripped, set, and foreran until the problems are tweaked, graded, and the section well-blanketed, that's it. No more setting in that section until that section is up for re-setting again. This will prevent what I call "fillers", or routes that are put up outside of that section's rotation, and it'll prevent the wall from being too congested.

-Steve

Posted 9 months ago #
Small-Time-Okie
Member

Biggest pet peeve. Not double taping so much as just plain messy tape jobs. Our gym tends to rely on volunteers for route setting. In fact I Don't even work at the gym, just been climbing and there for years. But it's so hard to force clean tape jobs from a bunch of people that get no reward for their work, no matter the quality of the tape job or climb quality.

Double taping really isn't that big of a deal for me. Then again, I've grown up with double taped routes. Seeing these pictures of 'clean' walls, however, has made me realize how messy our walls can look sometimes. On the other hand, we don't have that much room for bouldering or that many holds. So we cram problems where we can. We also just received the UC Plastic Paradise hold, so that had to be used by three of us. The hold is big enough to allow a triple tape job without being to messy.

Don't think double taping is always a bad thing, just should be avoided if possible, and done carefully if not avoidable.

Posted 9 months ago #
Yo Chi
Member

Steve, that's a good idea and I think it would definitely work well for a larger or wider bouldering space, but at my gym the bouldering area would be hard to break into distinct sections since it's so small. Looking into the "cave" there's a left wall, back wall, and right wall. That sounds easy enough to break up, but each wall isn't all that wide and a lot of problems traverse across multiple walls. The walls aren't that high either, which necesitates the traversing problems if we want to build any aspect of length into them. I think we might just need to cap off the amount of problems that we have up at any given time and be good about cycling them out when their time is up, and really stick to that overall number to avoid overcrowding.

To keep track of everything I've thought of making a large laminated topo/mountable poster of our bouldering area with the walls bare, and then just adding problem information to that with dry erase markers so that it could be easily updated for whenever something new went up or something came down. That's just an idea for now though, and I still have to run it by my head-setter.

Posted 9 months ago #
syedhali
Member

Thanks for the responses everyone. The most recent set at ET looks beautiful! We just had our most recent boulder set and it looks a lot better now that all our setters have limited double taping and given more thought to aesthetic considerations.

Posted 9 months ago #

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