Somebody finally got smart and invented a system so you don't have to worry about having the wrong bolt:
Freestone holds-
"For more convenience when screwing holds, our new models get the 2in1 System. No need to know if it’s a cap-head or countersunk head screw to fix holds because you can used two types of them."
This isn't the first company to do this. Teknik (among others) has been doing this for a couple years.
Really?!? That's cool.
I don't order holds so I'm not up on that kind of stuff.
One of our old hold making friends used to do this. Didn't look quite as clean when he finished though.
Metric or US?
Those are metric in the pic... it's a different angle than US on the flat head bolt.
How come people can't use the right bolt in the first place?!?!!? It blows my mind we even NEED a system like this.
We have a few setters (mostly the newer occasional setters) that still use the wrong bolt sometimes. This kind of system would help eliminate that issue as well as keeping the holds from getting ruined by the wrong bolt.
Another thing this would remedy would be the times when you've run out of the right sized bolts in one style or another (which happened to us this past month).
Cool thing to do but I would never buy just for the dual bolt option. Seems as though the flat head bolts wouldn't be able to get a large hold tight enough to not spin without a set screw or blocker hold, so I would just use a regular bolt if possible.
I'm with George on this one. The reason you have the flat head bolts is for increased surface area for the bold to use. With that area cut in half, you half the ability of the bolt. No point in having this other than to keep morons from using the wrong bolt.
However much a gym should just ignore this system, it would be great for a home wall. keeps the clutter and cost down.
I'm with rhodes on this one.
How hard is it to look at the hold...look at the bolt and match the suckers up. It is as simple as kindergarten shape matching.
There are two situations where this hold system is needed:
a) The setters need this sort of hand holding because they can't figure out the difference between a cap head and tapered bolt.
b)The head setters and gym management are too clueless/far removed from the setters that they can't keep the staff following basic instructions.
Sorry if this sounds curt, but I STILL can't fathom why this is STILL an issue.
I don't think its really that big an issue, just a simple little thing that hold producers can do to make their holds more versatile, I mean..
there is only so much you can improve on a hunk of plastic to set yourself out from the other companies..
to countersink that little recess on a drill press would take about 3 seconds a hold, if that.. so whats a good reason not to include it? there are less reasons to leave it off than to include it :P
it is sort of silly they advertise it though..
I would be concerned about the ability to get a good tight set with taper bolts in that setup, it must be setup so that you dont contact the washer before the hold is snugged, or you are going to rely to much on the very base of the taper on the washer for
"snugginess" (a technical term). Interesting idea, but not practical for the reasons mentions above.
There is also a system with a "extended washer". This washer will take both bolts.
HRT calls it "universal bolt insert" see http://walltopia.com/en/?/en/Products/product=25262#/en/Products/product=25262
However, I don't understand that people don't see this as a great improvement.
Surely people should be able to differentiate between the two types of bolts but that WILL take time and energy, two wrenches, two bits for your impact driver.
Wouldn't it be easier to just use a single bolt?
Look at it the other way, if you were setting up a new gym would you be willing to use two bolt systems?
I just don't see every manufacturer going this route, so if I liked some shapes from HRT or the previous mentioned company, and it had the dual bolt system, it wouldn't keep me from buying the holds, but I wouldn't have every hold in the gym have that feature.
After reading through some of the newer posts on this thread, I got to thinking....
I need a shaper/molder to answer this one:
Why do we need 2 different bolts for holds? Is there a technical reason requiring a cap head on some shapes and a taper for others? I understand that some smaller shapes need the taper just to get the bolt tucked away. What sort of revolution would be required to simplify this process?
To my understanding the tapered and button cap heads were introduced early on when strong gym climbers were trying to find comparable small holds indoors to the real world. The traditional cap or square head protruded too far out from the hold when it was only the size of a foot jib. So they found another means to lessen the protrusion.
Additionally it is well documented that the conical force exerted throughout an object via the tapered head disperses the compression force significantly than its counter part the cap head.
Its not economical to make a 'large' tapered head bolt as the head diameter would be increasing in size as the hexagonal dimension increases, and then you'd be back to the same problem of having a large bolt trying to fit in a small space.
Honestly I dont like using tapered bolts, cause if you need the bolt not to protrude, you can always use a button cap head and generally its on a small hold anyways, so yes you need a different wrench, but then at least you didnt have to spend extra cash on the hold you bought just because the shaper or hold maker had to manufacture it differently.
Donovan,
I agree with you about the buttonhead when applicable to reduce a protruding cap bolt, I wish 90% or more of the "jibs" we use had a washer and a inset diamater large enough to fit the button head.
Is it just me or do taper bolt feet grenade way more than similarly sized/materialed(?)foot. Especially our old school stoneages (the little pebbles mounted on a smear).
Anyways, just my $0.02.
SPAM ALERT! The above post from "domsmith" is somewhat relative to the thread... (and I personally do find all fasteners interesting) ...however it has little to nothing to do with the fastening system being discussed.
clever
Where I work... making climbing holds.
We design most of our holds to use standard cap screws with a hardened washer that fits both 3/8" standard and 10mm Metric bolts.
The countersink needs to be deep enough so that the head of the bolt doesn't protrude, but not so deep that it creates a mono pocket.
There needs to be a minimum of about 3/8" of PolyUrethane material under the washer in the finished piece.
We design holds to use a flat head bolts when they are too low of a profile to meet the above criteria. Usually small crimp holds and foot holds. Note: The angle of the countersink is different between US and Metric flathead bolts. (We correct this for holds we send to our international customers ;-)
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