Donovan, I think your numbers are right on the $.
How much do you get payed?
(94 posts) (25 voices)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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Guess that makes me "Setter (C)" ...
But seriously though... I just set routes for the Love of it now! :-)
(well, that... and to play with... I mean TEST new climbing holds) ;-)Our gym pays setters per route, based on the grade and whether it's TR or Lead.
5.8 = $25
5.9 = $30
5.10 = $35
5.11 = $40
5.12 = $45
If it's Lead .. + $5That's pretty good CA$H ...yes ...but.. Our walls are 50 to 55 feet tall. It is hard work!
And if the Wall Manager says change or fix something, you do it, our you don't get paid!Also, although it's not technically a requirement, setters are expected to strip old routes where ever they're setting.
The average setter here takes 4 to 6 hours. Some setters take days to set a route.
The uber experienced can set two good routes at once in less than 4 hours (not too many setters can do that and still make 'em good routes though. ;-)When nice folks you've never met before come up and express how much fun they had on a route you set... priceless!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Vince: So what's the incentive to set the lower grades instead of all 11's and 12's?
Posted 1 year ago # -
The Wall Manager keeps a list of the routes needed (amongst other wall work) so it is limited.
And more often than not... it is quicker and easier to set in the lower grades. A lot less technical moves to put together.
Also, our lead walls are steep and long. Great core workout setting on 'em! And you'll find nothing less than 5.11s there. Hard earned routes-set. ...no doubt ;-)
I do so enjoy setting high quality 5.8s, 9s, and 10s for the masses! Just as much if not more than setting a 12/13 project for a handful of the hardest climbers.
Posted 1 year ago # -
We also have a sliding scale, but it is based on an "average" number of hours to set a route of a given difficulty on a particular wall (our walls are 30ft and 45 ft). That is then multiplied by a set hourly wage, which changes as we gain more experience and take on more responsibility.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Well the dilemma I see here therefore is whether to pay setters by route or by the hour???
As I have never set by the route, could you all provide some pros and cons, in order to weigh these two against each other?
Time is of the essence regardless of being paid hourly or by the route. You would never want a setter still up on the ladder 3 hours once everyone else is done, and taking up that valuable real-estate while customers are trying to climb. And secondly you would never want a route half finished or just stop mid route! So I think regardless of whether you’re paid hourly or by the route, each gym has its own (or should have its own) expectancy of how long a route should take to put up. Last I remember, at our gym, we would say it takes 45min to set 5.8 and 1.5hour to set 5.12, so setting was about 3 hours long with half an hour on each side for setup and take down. Im sure many gyms are similar, however I bet the pay is dramatically different!
Posted 1 year ago # -
From a gym's perspective, the pros of paying setters per route are that it's really easy to budget. If there are x number of routes going up in a week, you know it's going to cost x number of dollars. The other pros are that experienced setters will take less time and therefore make more money than a less experienced setter who will probably take more time. It also takes out the problem of setters who take their time setting just to make more money because they are getting paid by the hour.
The cons are that people might rush so that they make more money. This is where some form of quality control comes into play and has the setter fixing something that isn't good.I'm sure others can come up with more pros and cons, but this is how I see it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Pay per route is better for sure but include quality control check by the head setter. If it doesn't pass, they don't get paid. How much you pay for routes would depend on height but for boulder problems I think they should only take an hour thus $15 per BP would be good pay. Yes?
Posted 1 year ago # -
The "pay per route" system only helps the "setting enthusiast". It is a detriment to a strong program at a gym. It's a come if you can proposition and does not promote the professionaism that needs to be at the base of our craft.
If at all possible, a gym should have at least one full-time setter (probably the head setter) that is on a salary. This is a day in and day out type of job; there is plenty to do between wall maintanance, setting, running, etc. to support a single directive hand to run the program. Part time setters need to have set hours in which they work and should be paid by the hour. If production becomes an issue then that setter needs to up his / her professionalism or leave.
Incentives are nice, but, needing to bribe people to do the job that they were hired to do is an issue of integrity not of motivation.
If you pay someone a professional wage you will get people who work and act professionally. If you pay setters just so that they can pick up a few extra bucks, you will never develope a cohesive and directed setting program.
G
Posted 1 year ago # -
I have to disagree Greg, the "pay per route" system doesn't only help the setting enthusiast. As long as there is a full time setter who oversees everything, the pay per route system is just as professional as paying someone an hourly wage.
If you're paying someone a set amount to do a job that you know should take roughly "x" amount of hours, it gets that person to work efficiently and professionally and not slack off since time becomes money. The professional person is going to become proficient with their setting so as not to waste time.
Sure there will be people who are just "setting enthusiasts", but they aren't going to care if they take a little longer and get paid a little less. Plus they aren't going to be wasting the gyms' money by taking twice as long as a professional person to do the same job.
The other thing that being paid per route enables is to let setters make their own schedule, something a lot of people really enjoy.
As long as there is some form of accountability, both methods of pay work well. It's up to the gym to decide which suits them best. I fully agree with you that if you are paying setters just so they can make a few extra bucks you will never develop a good setting program. But with a full time head setter overseeing everything, those people trying to make a few extra bucks by putting holds on the wall will either not be hired in the first place or not last.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I must just say that I strongly disagree with paying per route.
My first beef is that whether I’ve been setting for 20years or 2years my experience is negligible in this case, and not reflected in my compensation. Im sure that this is probably taken into account when hiring setters, but then I feel that this can lead to certain circumstances, such as: An elitist environment: where if you haven’t been setting for years and years and if you don’t have the experience, you will not be considered for the position. An abusive environment: where if someone is not ‘pulling their weight’ or ‘not up to par’ they would not have the flexibility to learn up because they would be correcting their current routes all the time, and playing catch up, which is learning to a degree, but not the positive kind.
I mentioned in a post before this one that time is almost a void entity because either the setter is too slow and they wont be round long or the gym knows how much time they can dedicate to setting. Someone earlier mentioned something that by route was better for budgeting, yet I don’t see the logic in that. If you were budgeting by route then you would always have the exact same number of a certain grade every time. This method therefore has no flexibility and cannot fluctuate with the demand of your clients. I know personally that during the summer time our facility has to up the number of its 5.8-5.10’s to accommodate all the kids and novice climbers. Even if you change the number of a certain grade that you needed, you would still have to adjust your budget. Therefore this debate is negligible as well.
If I think back to the Restaurant mentality again, if a waiter was paid by the number of tables they served, the best waiters would make bank due to them being more efficient than everyone else. But all waiters have a set amount of tables. Same with a setter right… if you pay by the route and have an according budget for the number of routes you have in a set place, you create a cap on how much that setter can make. In a perfect world you would have 2 or 3 of the most experienced setters available, they would make bank and there would be no room for anyone else.
Restaurants deal with this by paying a base salary and the waiters accept tips. Someone already mentioned something about climbers carrying quarters on them and putting them in a tip jar if they thought the route was good. Funny yet very impractical. Therefore Restaurants like everyone else have incentives to keep their top employees around a little longer while the young guns learn the ropes and gain the experience that they need to be productive and efficient.
Does paying by the route allow for this type of development? I don’t get the feeling it does because once again I get a flat fee regardless if Im Tony Yaniro or Donovan Craig!
I know every facility must think for themselves and figure out which options are best for them, but it does seem to be advantageous for there to be a uniform understanding of industry standards and best practices. This is certainly open for debate and I would like to hear more than 16 voices on the topic as I know there are more than just 16 gyms in the country who have their own opinions.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Having not been to the site for a while, I see that this particular thread has separated a few vocal participants into two camps: the per hour camp and the per route camp.
As said a few posts above, both can work and have their pros and cons. It's really up to the gym to decide and to tweak their pay program to match what their particular needs might be.
I've always been a fan of the per route option myself. Of course there needs to be some oversight by a Head Setter and the expectations of what designates a "completed" route need to be communicated, but it seems the best way (in my opinion) to acknowledge and compensate those setters that are more efficient and experienced with their setting. If a beginning setter takes 2 hours to set a climb, and an experienced setter can accomplish the same thing in 1/2 hour - the gym pays the same amount for the resulting climb. However, the more experienced and efficient setter is rewarded for his skill and the beginning setter has legitimate financial incentive to improve.
There are certainly ways for setters to take advantage of either option, but in my experience I've seen far more abuse of the per hour option.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Whatever works for you works.
We've got a lot of wall to maintain so we essentially do both.
Hourly wall managers and setters and non-employee paid setters (usually gym members paid via gym credit). Also, any employee can set routes on their own time and get the ca$h added into their paycheck. (nice bonus) It's all easily managed with a custom web based system (wrote it myself umpteenth years ago)(similar to the RedPoint program)The Pay Per Route part of it, as we've managed do it here, works great!
Some key points;
> Fosters a more artistic approach to route setting.
> Detailed critiques are the norm.
> Pride is high and dialing in routes is common.
> It's ok to set a 5.13+ project (the project being, the setting of it ;-)
> etc.
> Presents an opportunity for anyone who wants to set routes, to give it a go.
> Some of the best setters I've known, you would've never expected.
> And conversely, some who you might expect to be great setters,
can't set the time on a clock
> etc.The bottom line... It has in fact resulted in more and better routes, resulting in happier customers.
Good work ethics are upheld. The people here have everything to do with it though really. We love our jobs! We all are focused on the same goal... maximum FUN for everyone! Great routes and lot's of 'em. Slackers don't hang around long because well... they can't hang.
So whatever method works for your climbing and setting community.. great!
Let's hear more about it!And as for analogies.. If you compare it to a restaurant, I'd say the waiters equate more to basic climbing instructors, and the setters are either Cooks or Chefs ... fast food or fine dining?
Maybe Journalism, or Fine Arts and Graphic Design would be a better analogy.
Which of course begs the age old question...
Is route setting an art? Yes and no. For me YES!
I'm not just setting a way to get to the top of the wall, I'm setting all of the action in between!ok I'm done rambling on now :-)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Vincent,
Could you elaborate on how a pay-per-route program (PPR) (or perhaps you mean your hybrid program) "fosters a more artistic approach to route setting." This sounds ideal but intuitively I don't see the connection.
It seems that a PPR encourages expedience which can be achieved in a number of ways. Yes, experience and the ability to set the whole line with minimal necessary tweaking at the end is fast, but so is a line that goes straight up the wall. Right?
So it seems that in a PPR it comes down to the setters personal outlook on his/her work. If the outlook includes pride and such things than the type of pay probably doesn't matter. But my guess is that the amount paid makes a bit of a difference to some people.
Example, I will set my absolute best when I am donating my time. If you offer me a dollar per route I am going to have a hard to not thinking to myself "I am getting paid, but I am getting paid so little I really need to set 10 or so routes per hour to feel like I'm not getting slighted"
Ramble ramble... it was a good topic lifelessons. I don't find myself reading the news in the mornings anymore :)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Greatings!
We get payed by the day mostly.
250Euro to 300Euro per day.
So it doesn´t metter how many routes.
Important is the quality of the routes.In Swiss you get payed per hour.(25sfr per hour)
Every route in swiss counts like 3 hours so 75sfr for one route doesn´t metter how hard and if it´s in one or in 3 hours setted.Our record was 127 routes in a 15m high wall with 3 people and 2 lifts in about 27hours.
That was 3000Euros and the best payed job we ever had.
No worries the routes are very good standard and setted by 3 professionals who compeeted for years in the international comps.
Routes from french 4 to 8b
We had amazing working conditions:)I love to work with a fix price and do what ever the job is.
If it´s hard routes or easy routes.
Quality counts and brings you more new jobs with a better payment.
Experiance is neccessary and gives better goals for everybody.Cheap pricing crashes the market and is not the point where a good gym should look at.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Firstly, let me say “daaaaammmmnnnnnn” €300/day… that’s $48/hour on an 8 hour day, SON!!! I’m moving to Europe… see ya!
OK, so this is good, Im getting a feeling for the ‘whys’ and ‘hows’.
Louie: you make a good point about the difference in the amount of time that a setter takes on a regular route, and it makes sense that even though the ‘efficient’ setter only takes ½ an hour; he should still be paid in full, rather than a decreased wage just because he’s quick at what he does. However, to contrast your view point with Benky’s, should setting be a matter of efficiency or quality?
I’m sure we’ll all agree that quality trumps efficiency; however you can be both at the same time! Therefore this leads us to Vincent’s Hybrid approach (I guess).
So this lead me to think up my own hybrid approach and it goes something like this….
If we take a base hourly pay of minimum wage (for instance), then add in a factor for experience, and then add an incentive per route, you’ll end up with a table like this:
Hourly Rate (+)$1 per year of experience Grade Incentive per grade
$7.25 1 5.6 0.25
$7.25 1 5.7 0.50
$7.25 1 5.8 0.75
$7.25 1 5.9 1.00
$7.25 1 5.10a 1.25
$7.25 1 5.10b 1.50
$7.25 1 5.10c 1.75
$7.25 1 5.10d 2.00
$7.25 1 5.11a 2.25
$7.25 1 5.11b 2.50
$7.25 1 5.11c 2.75
$7.25 1 5.11d 3.00
$7.25 1 5.12a 3.25
$7.25 1 5.12b 3.50
$7.25 1 5.12c 3.75
$7.25 1 5.12d 4.00
$7.25 1 5.13a 4.25
Examples:
2 hours, with 3 years of experience, setting a 5.10a = $18.75 total, or $9.38/hour
10 hours, with 10 years of experience, setting a 5.13a = $86.75 total or $8.68/hour
1 hour, with 5 years of experience, setting a 5.12a = $15.50 total or $15.50/hourBasically if you’re setting an .11b and you have 2 years of experience, and you take 3hours instead of 2hours to set the route, you’ve gone from making $8.75/hour (@3hours) to $9.50/hour (@2hours). Therefore it would be in the setters best interest to work quickly and set decent grades. Generally speaking, your best setters wouldn’t be setting your lowest grades and the experience incentive would help balance the compensation levels.
This “Hybrid” approach seems to me, to be far more complex than it needs to be and I would, for the sake of time and effort, revert back to either hourly or PPR. But it is an option, depending on how your facility works.
A few trends that I have noticed throughout this thread are:
-Those that pay by the route pay their setters better than those who pay hourly. (This is based purely on the numbers reflected in this thread)
-A Head routesetter is always required, regardless of the program.
-Those who incentivize their program, get better results. (if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys kind-of-thing)And Benky said it best when he wrote “Cheap pricing crashes the market and is not the point where a good gym should look at”
Finally I will say that routesetting is part science and part art, and if we were compensated as such we’d be rich. However few are at the level where they could consider themselves as doctors of either.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Donovan -
Of course quality is a given and has to be paired with efficiency. In a setter-rich environment like I enjoy here in SoCal, anyone that doesn't offer quality in their setting won't be asked to set again. It's really as simple as that.
Like I said above, important components of the PPR option are a clear understanding of what's expected, and some person or group that oversees the setting to insure that those expectations are met.
Almost all of my setting these days is done on a contract basis for specific events or comps, and has a fixed price for a certain amount of setting (regardless of how long it might take). The rest is done as a guest setter at local gyms on a PPR basis. It allows me to make a decent wage and the facilities have always been happy with my product.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Check this out.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So, what i get from this lecture (and it was great, i enjoyed it) is that a base pay that takes money out of the equation allows constructive individuals to grow, prosper, and innovate. Base pay = a livable wage. No incentives, no tricks, no subtle manipulations.
Let me do what you (boss) know that i do best and i will excell. Let me set in an environment, without having to worry about paying bills, making rent, or if last nights sushi extravaganza will put me under for the next 2 weeks, where i can trudge along, or get fancy if the spirit moves me (and it does!) and I will make you more money.
Now that is what i call incentive for the employer!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Pop quiz... how many gyms actually have a "Head Route Setter"?
Im willing to be money that they're all just 'Jack of all trades' and get a free membership on the side because they know how to put a sequence of holds on a wall.Head Routesetters???? hmmmm....
Posted 1 year ago # -
Most gyms must have at least one person who is charge of overseeing route setting. Although they might have other responsibilities in addition (team coach, desk manager, etc).
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm setting for a gym in SoCal. Here we have to set on 30' wall's and put up three routes per rope-getting paid $45. Pay for boulder routes isn't quite figured out yet meaning, we write our number of routes and how many hours it took to set then the setting mang try's to find a fair dollar amount to give. The setter's here have been recently talking about what would be fair pay....and its difficult to say, for the boulder- route lengths and quality vary..maybe charge per hold (having head setter check after) 15 holds= $xx I like tope rope having a set rate, hopefully over time the rate can increase. I have been keeping my eye on the popularity of climbing in gyms and don't think where i'm at its the right time to ask for a higher pay. supply and demand.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Rhoades: Thats kinda what Im getting at, just because we call them "head routesetter" doesnt really mean anything, other than that person is "in charge". I think its two fold on either side, meaning that if you are going to appoint a head routesetter (managers) then you need to clearly set the expectations. If you are going to call yourself a head routesetter (setters) then you need to acknowledge that this isnt just a gig that pays, its a respectable position within the climbing community! It works both ways and we need to look at this in a different light.
Head Setters, should familiarize themselves with programs, Quality Control standards, mentor-ship and constructive criticism (as well as many other things), in order to state on their resume that they are actually what they say they are.
But this is going off topic sorry....
ATP: the purpose of this thread is not to suddenly get setters higher pay. Instead it is here for the purpose of opening up dialog between setters and their owners/managers to help them in understanding what the industry looks like. As we have all mentioned, it varies from state to state and facility to facility. I guess you could say that we are just helping everyone draw some guidelines and come to a common consensus. I would hope that by reviewing this information with you manager, they would be able to attest to the level of work and product that you provide, therefore acknowledging and actively practicing a set structure of compensation that would lead to your facility producing a far greater experience than what your customers are regularly used to.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Donovan: I explained my situation where I work, added some ideas of how to make a pay scale for bouldering and concluded with my thoughts of my current pay and what I have observed in my area. Some people are writing there pay with some added thoughts, and by doing that we can have an understanding of "how much do you get paid". All you have done is respond to peoples comments. Giving your thoughts about their pay, setters postions, and what you think is fair and should be done. I would rather read info on you as a setter's pay, then some complicated pay scale you've created.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Now now, no need to get testy...
Donovan, I disagree with your conjecture that having a structured or fair-wage pay-scale would allow a facility to provide a "far greater experience."
Would this suggest, then, that setters are currently setting sub-par if they get sub-par wages? In our gym, people already set as best they can, and I don't think doubling the pay would improve the product.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thinking more about how to find an accurate metric for determining "route worth".
Who cares how long it takes a setter to put something up? The climbers certainly don't.
Who cares how many routes one person can set versus another? The climbers surely don't. (And don't call me Shirley!)What the climbers care about (and thus the gym should care about) are the quality of the climbs. Awesome climbs = happy climbers. Happy climbers = happy management.
So here it is...
Climbers are asked to rate every route they climb based on how they like them, then turn in their "score cards" to the front desk. Setters will get paid some time later (2-4 weeks perhaps?) based purely on how much climbers like their climbs.Climbers love your routes? You get paid well. Climbers hate your choss piles, I mean, routes? You're eating ramen noodles for the next week and better bump up your game or get out.
No longer would management have to worry about paying by the route or by the hour. Pay by the "happy climber" metric.
Posted 1 year ago # -
That's an interesting thought, but I think that climber preferences vary too much for it to be effective. Moreover, it's prone to tampering.
I think that might work well for "incentives," similar to a bonus check for making the most sales in a month. However, the setter still needs to have a base pay that scales with time, route difficulty, experience, etc.
Posted 1 year ago # -
It seems from reading each post that the base pay is around minimum wage $8-$10 per hour or maybe $60-$80 a day roughly.....
Posted 1 year ago # -
There seems to be a steady idea here that the higher the grade of a climb is the more a setter should get paid.
I think that the thinking here is flawed. The 4-7% of the climbing population that will try to take the ride on your 13b pales in comparison with the 70% that will take multiple runs on any route that's between 9- and 10d.
The properly set moderate climb is way more valuable to the gym than any "limit pusher" could be. Because moderate climbs are the meat of a gyms setting program, shouldn't they be rewarded more highly?
I still disapprove stongly of the PPR concept but if gyms are going to use it anyway they should at least recognise where and who the money is coming from.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Greg has it right. Good routes that the majority of climbers will climb (8's, 9's, and 10's) are way more valuable than any 12 or 13 project.
Posted 1 year ago #
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