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How much do you get payed?

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Started 1 year ago by lifelessons
Latest reply from jackalope

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Louie Anderson
Member

I agree completely. While it takes more skill to set a quality route at the higher grades, none of the PPR programs locally pay more for higher grades. Usually the local gyms make assignments as to who is going to set what group of climbs and factoring ability levels into who sets the harder climbs is a part of that assignment process.

I also agree that well-set(and diverse)5.9 through 5.11 climbs are far more valuable to most facilities. Again the quantity, and maybe even location, of these is an important part of the assignment process.

Good communication here throughout this thread. I'd like to see things get more standardized and hopefully to the point where setters can make a little better wage. As many have said before (here and elsewhere): we are collectively providing the product that gyms sell to their clientele. Without us there would be no income on their part. I think the industry as a whole is starting to realize this more and place value on good setting programs, but we aren't "there" yet.

Posted 1 year ago #
Donovan Craig
Member

atp: My apologies, I will keep my comments to myself regarding your posts. However if not for the suggestions I have posted in this thread the dialog may not have been as diverse as it is. For that I do not apologize.

Nevertheless, it becomes more evident to all that Experience therefore far out weighs the ability to set high numbers (I think we confirmed this earlier in this thread). If its meat and potatoes we're after then it becomes a matter of compensation for knowledge. Those who acquire more knowledge about their trade (via experience or training) should be rewarded accordingly. (Isnt this how its done 90% of the time). Again my first attempt at a payscale is adapted for such a compensation.

Monday I set a 5.9 that took me 1h10m (which is long for me) but it was great, cause the Rose(Egyptian) move forced everyone out of sequence. Even though some of the stronger climbers pulled straight through it, they knew once they had pulled the move that they had done it wrong!

I believe this is the type of setting that we're all shooting for (not to blow my own horn). But its this type of knowledge that allows me to set things that other setters have yet to figure out. Therefore should I be compensated a little extra for this 'Fun factor', I think so. In a PPR setting I would not get any type of bonus in wage. Maybe I might get a pat on the back(!) but those dont pay my huge cellphone bill!

As I think of it, it might be in USAC's (or someone very knowledgeable...) best interests to provide a "Head Routesetter" certification. This might ultimately be a defining contribution to the world of routesetting.

LoneWolf: sorry I forgot to respond to you...
I think that by having a set scale, setters who come and go, and are brought up through the system understand what is expected of them. As I previously state somewhere in this thread, many of my duties we're assigned a value by my predecessors. I think that having a set scale will also help gyms in general, say if I move from Detroit to Austin.
Additionally, Im not saying that setters are setting sub par, conversely if they want a higher compensation they need to increase their knowledge base, hence a scale that represents that.

Hope this all makes sense...

and now I will apologize in advance to all who I offend :)

Posted 1 year ago #
Louie Anderson
Member

I'll let someone else point it out...

Posted 1 year ago #
Donovan Craig
Member

What'd I say now Louie? spill the beans!

Posted 1 year ago #
LoneWolfe
Member

Ooh, a riddle. My guess: A rose and an egyptian are not the same move. My understanding is that egyptian = dropknee, while rose = goofy hand-behind-head cross-through. Then again, maybe you combined the two, though a forced rose sounds pretty burly for a 5.9. Slightly off topic...

Posted 1 year ago #
Vincent
Member

That's what I was thinking Louie.
... particularly about...

The rose move (crossing through so much so that your head goes under your arm) is an advanced technique you'll usually only find on climbs 5.12 and higher.
It was made popular with the classic route "Rude Boys" 5.13c (didn't that route used to be rated 5.13b?)

I've never seen a 5.9, 10, or even 11 for that matter, that had required a rose move.

Most if not all 5.9 climbers are not even familiar with a cross through much less a Rose move.

There are many other advanced climbing techniques you won't find on the easy grades.
And it's a common mistake for newer setters to try and put these advanced moves on non-advanced climbs.

Posted 1 year ago #
atp
Member

wow picture and all :)

So the idea is to have a base pay so that a setter can go from one gym to the next knowing he'll have the same pay and the owner will know he will have quality routes right?
Maybe 5.6-5.11 will be paid the same and 5.12-5.+ can be paid a little more because not everyone can do this and there's not as much need for them. While quality is always a must, afterward to ensure the quality the head setter will check ( i like Donovans idea of a head setter cert.) In construction a builders work will be checked by the inspector to make sure a certain level is held, and if the builder can not meet the requirements then they will lose out on work. With certs in mind, if a gym in an area becomes popular enough, then talking to the mang about all setters having a level one cert could help, that way over time it will be important for a setter to have a cert always to get the base pay. As for new ones, they can be "interns" not being paid at first for setting, but being paid later with experience and a cert.

Posted 1 year ago #
Donovan Craig
Member

Ok its, not the full conventional "Rose" move that we all know, but its a single handed right hand a single handed left hand and some big ol' feet. Its as close to a rose move you'll come at that grade.

Geez people stop reading into every minute detail, how else was I to explain the move without taking up 10 pages... "common mistake for newer setters"-deep cuts Vince, deep!

LOL,If you cant laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at!

In the not so distant future, I would love to walk into a gym that has posted on their door "Routesetter Certified" or "USAC Routesetter Certified Facility". Imagine knowing that before you even walk in the door, that you're going to be getting on something well worth while?!?!?!?!

Posted 1 year ago #
Vincent
Member

Sorry Donovan wasn't trying at all to burn ya.. Just my observations from my experiences here at our local gyms.

This being the longest and most intense thread on here in a very long time, I thought it was all about the minute details :-)

And as for route setting certifications, I'm sceptical. Who's the certifier? What's the costs? What's the return? Is it really worth it?

Maybe things are moving in the right direction for that. .. I'm still watching and waiting. We'll see.

Posted 1 year ago #
Louie Anderson
Member

I was away from my computer for awhile, but I see that others saw it too. It's not so much that we're reading into every minute detail, as the fact that you offered your use of that move on a 5.9 as the reason why you should be better compensated. We as setters have the opportunity to teach climbers to become better. This often involves exposing them to new techniques. A Rose move (even a limited one) however is far above the realm of what should be on a 5.9 climb in my opinion.

You seem to be pretty strongly against the PPR system, but you fail to recognize the bottom line. That being that the most talented setters will be given the chance to set (all other things being equal) and will get a greater share of the available work. Those climbs that don't pass muster would need to be fixed or the setters would not be paid. Basically a standard is set and setters are expected to meet or exceed those standards if they want to be compensated and continue to work in that particular facility.

I would not expect to walk into a gym and be paid vastly more than another skilled setter solely because I have been setting for as long as I have. However, with your proposed system that's exactly what would happen based on my experience and certs. If his climb is as creative and well-set as mine, then we should get the same wage.

Now if I can accomplish the same thing in half the time, then the PPR system rewards that. To take that further, if I am working twice as fast and get two climbs up in the time that he gets one set, then the gym benefits by having less interruption to their normal operations. Further I benefit, because I'm compensated accordingly for my productivity and efficiency.

Now let's say I'm having an off day and really dragging my feet. With PPR my compensation is automatically adjusted for this and the gym is not paying me a normal hourly wage for substandard productivity.

I certainly prefer the PPR option (whether I'm the one setting, or the one paying others to set). The secret is looking at your wall height and other factors and setting the PPR rates to match what your expected productivity is. One of the biggest benefits from the gym's viewpoint is reliable and accurate budgeting of setting monies for the normal route count in the facility. If you're setting "x" number of climbs per month, it is always going to cost you "x" number of dollars - period.

Posted 1 year ago #
Louie Anderson
Member

As for certs: I have them, but am really unsure how valuable they are at this point in our industry. The number of high-end setting gigs where the certs are required are still few and far between. There are nowhere near enough jobs for those that are already certified (at least at the upper end of the process). If gyms start to recognize setting certs more and make them a prerequisite for employment, then they might have more value.

One of the most accurate criticisms I've heard against the whole certification process is that you are taking something that is intrinsically creative and trying to make it fit into a standardized pattern or process. I've been involved in and have taught some great clinics, but the best you can really hope to achieve is to instill some basic thought processes and setting techniques in the minds of those attending. You can't really teach creativity or thoughtful movement to the final degree - it has to be there in the setter's own mind and ability for it all to come together.

The only place that setting certs seem to make some semblance of sense is in competition setting. The setters are usually well-versed in the rules used in their specific comp format and making the climbs they set fit into those formats and scoring systems are all important factors for such events. These high-level certs still don't teach specific movement though; but focus on efficiency, hold selection, use of wall space, etc. One of the most important requirements for obtaining a higher-level cert is experience at that level of competition as an intern or assistant. When you are hiring a high-level cert setter, you at least know that they have some history with events of that caliber. However, if the setter is not creative, all the certs in the world would not make him/her my first pick when choosing to hire a setter for an event.

As for a head setter cert, that's even more ambiguous. Unless every gym employing this position has the same job description and expectation, to what criteria do you test and certify? Every facility has its own needs and considerations. I see this working even less than a normal setting cert in most instances.

Hope I'm not ruffling anyone's feathers. There's no intended slight or disrespect in my words. There's some good conversation and debate going on here and more of this should occur in all areas of our industry in my opinion. Keep your thoughts coming...

Posted 1 year ago #
Greg Rupp
Member

Louie-

Your preferance of the PPR system makes good sense to me. "Hired Gun" status really does allow for a PPR system to work well.

However, I believe that the day to day operations of a setting program of a commercial gym (esp. a larger one) demand a steady and professional core setting team that are best rewarded with a consistant wage that dosen't vary much with the short term ins and outs of pure setting needs. I need a crew that takes as much pride in wall maintinance, as they do in how many of the gym's top climbers are working on their latest opus.

Being a part of the core cadre that make a gym work has many more responsibilities than simply putting plastic on the wall. I want people who take their ENTIRE job seriously, not just the bits that make them "locally famous".

ps.

this topic really is one of the most important aspects raising the quality of our industry in the US. all of the opinions presented so far have merit. i hope that this thread continues for a long time, not to get to a definitive conclusion, but to really start to direct setters toward knowing how valuable they are.

G

Posted 1 year ago #
acorneau
Member

Great posts Louie (and others). No "ruffling of feathers" here, just good conversation/debate/discussion that needs to be aired out.

What really needs to happen to carry this discussion to reality is to bring the gym owners/management into the discussion so they can give their perspective on things (since they're the ones cutting the checks).

Posted 1 year ago #
Louie Anderson
Member

Greg brings up a good consideration. Are setters the ones that should be doing wall maintenance?

I've seen many gym that have specific staff to do just that. Whether it be T-nut replacement, tape or tagging repairs, whatever... Sometimes this person is called a wall manager, some times they do other handyman type duties around the gym as well. Different facilities set things up differently as we all should our own facilities as we see fit.

If you want setters to do this as well as set, then maybe an hourly wage makes more sense. Or maybe an hourly wage for maintenance and other floor duties and PPR for setting?

Please also keep in mind that although the acronym introduced up-thread "PPR" stands for Pay Per Route, it could be expanded to a monthly set pay for a certain amount of lead climbs, topropes and boulder problems. You are still being paid a set fee for a set amount of climbs produced; which is the basis of that option.

Now if a setter strips a T-nut during his duties and it needs to be replaced, or he decides that a T-nut should be added to allow for his climb to go where he wants it to, I would expect my setters to do that associated work as part of their setting.

I guess the gist of this is: are we trying to set ourselves apart as professional setters, or are we just going to be one of the staff doing these other tasks and setting from time to time? Those are two very different job descriptions and a lot of our discussions in this thread drift one way or the other based on the answer.

Posted 1 year ago #
RhoadsClimbs
Member

I run a "community route-setting" program at my gym. It seems to work pretty well, I have 10 setters who get a free membership for setting a quota and 10 more or so people who set for fun. I am head "nazi" route-setter and I check each route and boulder problem for quality, correct bolt usage, good taping, etc. If there are issues I fix them on the spot and inform the setter how they can do better.

With a large amount of setters I get a nice diversity of styles. I've been to gyms where only a few people do the setting and all the routes tend to be repetitive, so I really like having many people's interpretation of what's "good". The community aspect makes it more laid back, less like a job and I think with less pressure to put up X number of routes the setters tend to set better. We have parties once a month to set as a group to get feedback and refresh the gym.

I do pay a couple of desk employees to set if their shift is slow or if I'm in desperate need of some routes but for the most part my only route-setting cost are the tangibles and my own time.

If this works, where is my incentive to pay more for route-setting? I could use some more bodies, skill, and accountability for comps but that's only a few times a year. (BTW, if there was a setting team I could hire at a reasonable rate for comps I would.)

Sorry, but I wouldn't find any setter but one that can set high-end for comps and/or manage route-setting worth more than $10/hour.

Regarding certifications...."I can take a dump in a box and slap a certification on it, I've got spare time, but then all you got is a certified piece of shit!". LOL! With that said, there is always something to learn from a class or certification and those with that certification I would certainly take more seriously initially because it at least indicates they have made some sort of commitment.

Crucify me!

Posted 1 year ago #
acorneau
Member

I'm a part-timer at the gym, only one day a week. However, I'm there only to set and not do other things like teach belaying, handle parties or walk the floor. I used to be a "regular" employee, but was moved over to "full time" route setter a few years ago.

If I get a bad t-nut I mark it with a zip tie sticking though the back of the wall. If I get a spinner I cut it off with my angle grinder from the front, if I can, or tape it for someone else to cut off from the back at a later time. If I really want that t-nut for my route then I'll go behind the walls and fix it right way.

Posted 1 year ago #
Aaron
Member

I know it's been said before, but this really is a great thread and a great way for us as setters to discuss our profession and the best ways to compensate us for it. One thing though, don't think that setters outside of the US aren't reading this as well. I know many Canadian setters are finding this very interesting.

Louie, you have some great points and are stating what I tried to state earlier on in this discussion far better than I did.

At my gym we work on a PPR system as well. Expectations are laid out for all setters and what their duties during the setting process entail. As head setter, I make up a schedule each week as to what is to be set, where and who will set it, trying to vary each setters grades and locations each week. I also check each setters creations afterwards and provide feedback and critique if necessary and make sure the route is what we want at the gym and the grade is correct.

Obviously there are many other duties that I take care of with the day to day operations of the gym as well as setting.

Having numerous setters to get a diversity of styles (as Rhoads pointed out) is definitely a good thing. I personally think though that if you are only trading memberships for setting or paying a minimal amount, you aren't going to get the quality of setting you could get. Basically people are going to set what they want and not necessarily what is needed. When people are compensated monetarily for their efforts, they tend to put a little more into it then if they were just given fair trade.

As for Greg's post on wall maintenance, I think that when setters are setting, that is what they should do. Follow what expectations the gym might have laid out for them and be creative in their craft. The wall maintenance should be taken care of by the head setter and/or the setters if they want to work extra time and get paid to do so. I think that as setters, we want to be spending the bulk of our time setting, using our skills to create climbs people are going to enjoy. There will always be people who want to set on the side, but generally, they aren't going to put the same thought and quality into a route as a full time setter.

Posted 1 year ago #
Greg Rupp
Member

The question of wall maintenance is an important point. The main responsibility of a "head routesetter" is to oversee EVERYTHING that goes up on the walls of the gym (ropes, plastic, tape, t-nuts, volumes, etc.). The crew of people who work at the direction of the "head routesetter" are the setters. These people are the best and most qualified to do the repairs, rope changing, tape fixing in the gym.

In our gym we set every day. There's always a new "dish" on the menu. Waiting for a separate crew to take care of the issue that we're responsable for, and are right there to take care of seems to be a waste.

Being a setter to simply put up plastic is like being a carpenter simply to assemble a chair. The work and the craft of setting are a much bigger endeavor.

G

Posted 1 year ago #
atp
Member

It seems like much of the problem is, organization. If we think about everyone is looking for rules and guidelines, whats the standard and who does what, and can we count on their work being done right. Organization is hard to have with something thats is newer and created around people who have a "go with the flow attitude" (not speaking for everyone) But now indoor climbing seems large enough to set up more current guild lines. Certs create organization, maybe not as meaningfull now but can be later. We have proof that certs work with comp setting right? So why stop there and take it to a gym level. Does this sound realistic?

In reguards to creativity thats up to the employer who hires. A setter can set a problem or two if its no good then he lose's out on work. People can get licenses for different jobs but not work out in the end, there's no perfect system for a right employee it takes a few things combine training(cert?), creativity, work ethic.

Wall maintenance is hard because if you have floor help and you'll probably get a half hearted work effort which ends up in a trashed wall or another spinner. A setter knows its important to have the wall in good condition to set, and will thus go the extra mile to do it right(or should anyway).....maybe both can help eachother spreading out the work to a few peolpe?

Posted 1 year ago #
atp
Member

PPR I still agree with, simple and allows for adjustment.

Posted 1 year ago #
atp
Member

Posted 1 year ago #
Fred
Member

"The rose move (crossing through so much so that your head goes under your arm) is an advanced technique you'll usually only find on climbs 5.12 and higher.
It was made popular with the classic route "Rude Boys" 5.13c (didn't that route used to be rated 5.13b?)"
The rose name comes from a route called La rose and le vampire in Buoux France, top 80's route probably the first 8b/5.13d by Antoine Le Menestrel

More info on this route in the following link
http://www.up-climbing.com/en/contributions/rock/a-dream-cross-over

Posted 1 year ago #
Aaron
Member

Yes, it is true that certain aspects of wall maintenance are best taken care of by setters, there are definitely aspects that can be taken care of by regular staff. I think ATP has a good point with having the work spread between both parties. Things like fixing tape, washing holds do not necessarily require a qualified setter to do. I think it's finding the balance of which jobs can regular staff do and which jobs require more skill and knowledge.

Posted 1 year ago #
Donovan Craig
Member

All very good points made! Thanks for burning my arse on the rose move as well, I'll be sure to explain myself in finite detail next time;)
I do love that whatever I put up on this thread is considered seriously, I very much appreciate that people are taking the time to read these long threads and add a new perspective to it. There are no hard feelngs on this thread I think it's just close to out hearts both conciously and economcally, and that's what makes this a great debate!

Louie you bring so much to the table with yor vast knowledge and years of experience, isn't it time for another book???

Greg I feel like just from reading this thread I would like to come and work for you. It sounds like you have a good gig going on there and I'm sure many could learn from you!

As for certifications it is the only way draw a conclusion about something. Although many may not agree with it, it would be the only way we could know whether or not someone has obtained the skills to run a wall. Now setting itself could be something altogether different. Possible the head setter cert could just focus on running the wall and the setting itself could be left to experience? That might work better for most facilities who are very different from one to the other. But we do know that replacing a tnut is pretty standard across the globe, and maybe those are the sorts of things that a cert should focus on.

I guess that is just one part of this whole discussion because as a setter if I knew that there was a course that I could take and my employer would increase my pay based solely on getting that cert, why wouldn't I then strive to get certified. This is how it is in the rest of the service industry, therefore I think it would be a good idea to incorporate something similar.

That might spark more entreprenural opportunities but allowing thoses with a head setter cert (provided they are good setters themselves) to offer their own route setting clinics. Only by sharing knowledge whether for free or by paid opportunity will we increase the overall level of our industy. On a side note I did find a website that offers climbing wall management training. Not sure if it pertains to what we are trying to achieve but I'll look into it more.

I think we have managed to turn this thread into looking at the individual as well as looking at the whole picture. On an individual level there are ways and means for people to increase their knowledge (although beit slim) and now we are also beginning to focus on the setting industry as a whole. However it is only through each individuals effort that we can achieve a concensus as to what would be acceptable across the board. Whether is PPR or hourly it dependant on the facility and what it can sustain. But what every gym needs to figure out, it sounds to me, is who does what, to what level they do it, and how valuable that is to their bottom line.

Ultimately what someone (Louie) needs to do is figure out in today's world what the essentials are to the route setter and how they can apply that to any facility. Once you have everything in one place, uh i dunno say a book, then that could be used as "A setters guide to gyms of the future".

Sorry Louie but you've done it once before and many consider you still very knowledgable in our field, I know I still do!

You could almost write a book from this thread!!!

Posted 1 year ago #
jackalope
Member

Fred - thanks for the Buoux thing, I was going to add it but I got to your post before I got to the bottom of the thread. Vince--Smith Rocks is the oft-overlooked American Sport Mecca, but shame! A move like the rose could only come from France! : )

As for everyone else...I'd still like to hear what people are actually making in $/Euro/Whatever. I think actual #s will help us get an idea of how setting currently pays in the industry. If the responses so far are an accurate sample, then it seems like setting pays $7.50-11 per hour or 15-45/route or 11-15/bp? Unless you're Greg, who is making a modest but livable salary?

When I began setting I got paid for 3 hrs/route and could take all the time to set it that I wanted. That worked out to 25/route-ish I think. It was 12 years ago, so that wasn't so bad... Since then I've been paid hourly, or by the job for comps. Setters at my gym make $10-$11/hour.

Recently I guest set a few routes at a PPR gym for $45/route. It was a good deal, 'til I realized that if you're paid per route you don't get paid at all for the time you spend helping cut holds off the wall that someone else got stuck, or fixing t-nuts. Etc... The first 2 routes I set took 6 hrs, or 3 hrs/route, so $15/hr, which included set-up, clean-up, lunch break, etc... Not so bad. The second day I helped get someone else's stuck holds off the wall and sort holds into bins, and suddenly I was setting 1 route in 4.5 hours, so I made $10/hr...quite a significant decrease. So I don't think PPR is the system unless there's an add on for extra work done, like PPR + PPJ (pay per job) for extra jobs like t-nut maintenance, wall maintenance, etc...

One more thing--I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to consider the work of a more experienced setter to be more valuable than the work of a newer setter. More experienced setters may be quicker to see problems and understand solutions, but newer setters are often extremely enthusiastic and energetic for setting and have tons of new ideas to throw at the wall and experiment with. New ideas always create new exciting things, and it's important not to overlook the potential benefits of fresh eyes in a gym or at an event.

That's all I've got for now.

Posted 1 year ago #
Dan The Man
Member

I get paid $12.50 per hour. Climbing is free. $35 to clean an old route and put up a new route + an overlay. If the gym is really quiet, you can work a regular shift and put up a route at the same time and get paid for both. Technique courses are half of the registration fee before tax. This works out to about $5 per hour per student. Usually not more than 8 students per instructor, but we push that ratio really high sometimes.

Posted 1 year ago #
Donovan Craig
Member

I may have already said it, but to continue the discussion....

I get a free membership for part time setting. If I was an hourly employee my wage would be the equivalent of $9/hour, no benefits.

Please dont think less of the organization that I work for, as I have an agreement with them. However I put this out there respectfully in the interest of advancing knowledge and communication.

Thanks,

Posted 1 year ago #
adebowski
Member

Just read through the thread. Here is my experience.

I've been setting for roughly 10 years on and off.

The last place where I set for money worked as follows.
Wall Manager/Head Setter-
His responsibilities were to basically take care of route distribution, assignments, t-nutting, re-taping, fixing broken holds/spinners, ordering new holds from companies, replacing ropes, replacing worn 'biners, etc. He also provided feedback on routes and gave us summaries of the customer comments that came in during the month for our routes. He also runs a volunteer crew (work for trade) that cleans the holds, strips old routes, takes down tape.

Setter (Me)-
There is a master list of what routes need to be set and where. This list is refreshed every 2 weeks. I have 2 weeks to do my work. I get paid hourly but with a twist. The gym decided that a boulder problem is worth 1 hour and a route 2.5. Whether or not that's how long it takes that is what you get paid for. Since I have been setting for a long time I am VERY efficient. I never get on a rope without something happening on every jug. Because of this my route is set, tweaked, and taped in (usually) about and hour. So I basically pocket 1.5 hours for each route. Similar efficiency with boulders. In addition to that "bonus" based on efficiency I also get a "bonus" for experience. So my hourly rate was $11/hr. wherein most employees and other setters made between $7-8/hr. I also got free climbing, a "buddy" pass for my partner, all hours access, and pro-deals. So basically due to efficiency and experience my effective hourly rate jumps to $27/hr. which is what I feel is a fair wage for the product that I create. There is massive incentive for others to follow in my footsteps, since the more efficient you are and the more experience you have your hourly rate just keeps going up. This treats the new setters and the veterans equally by normalizing the pay and having the individual truly determine what it is they are making.

It was a great system.

I currently set for trade at my local gym since I am not working there. Again experience and effeciency essentially get me a month pass for 2.5 hours of work.

Posted 1 year ago #
Igotaboner
Member

I have been flaccid the past few months until now, Jackalope... you have boiled my blood and made me angry stiff...I'm not gonna lie, this is the first time that a dude has given me a RAGING boner. Your idea that an experienced setter is just as valuable as a newbie, is absolute dogshit. It's almost as bad as companies still sending that monkey at climbingholdreview holds. Where do you get that backass logic? "New ideas always create new exciting things", that must be some boulder bubble thinking. "new ideas" sometimes ends up being some jackass thinking that a rose move is appropriate on a 5.8. just because your cheap ass gym pays you a rookie's salary doesn't mean that any chimp that climbs v2 is ready to be a routesetter. it only works that way in canada for some british dude that acts like he knows something about routesetting but he doesn't really know shit either.

Posted 1 year ago #
RhoadsClimbs
Member

Somebody's a little drunk right now!

Posted 1 year ago #

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