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1. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   There was a debate about this at my gym. If you grab a set of holds, and without to much thought, set them all on the wall without any real plan, can it be considered good setting? The people that fore-ran the route were captivated by it, they also argued about the grade, but they said it was more like outdoor climbing, where there was no real forced movement, just holds and a destination.

   Also, have you ever had to deal with people that just won't agree to your idea of the grade? Like people that just scream personal insults cause you don't think they were right in grading a route based on half the climb?

   Posted 9 months ago #

2. rock
   Member

   Many of the best routes I have set started by picking a color and throwing about 25 holds of that color into a bucket. Whatever hold I grabbed first was the hold I used, and I set the sequence that flowed best with no consideration for grade. After the hands are set go back and add feet wherever you you imagine someone might use one (lots of feet).

   I don't consider it lazy and this is how I start many new setters out. Once you can set quickly/efficiently and are setting good sequences that flow well and are climbable by climbers of all sizes then you are ready to start targeting a specific difficulty and forcing moves.

   Posted 9 months ago #

3. acorneau
   Member

   I've used the random method, to varying degrees, for a while now.

   Sometimes it's as simple as "whatever hold I pull out of the bucket next" and sometimes it's the full-on "spray a bunch of small/crappy holds up the wall".

   I don't train a lot of setters but when the newer guys ask for advice I'll almost always tell them that not every hold/position/move has to be exactly pre-determined, but randomness can help to create some unique and interesting routes.

   Posted 9 months ago #

4. J-man
   Member

   I like make people follow the sequence I set when they climb my routes. However it doesnt bother me if people find different ways of doing the same route (Most of the time my planned sequence is the easiest way anyway).

   Throwing random holds on the wall with no thought is most likely going to make an inconsistent route that has no flow.

   If you have to use the "randomness" method to make your routes interesting then maybe you should let someone else with some imagination set instead.

   Posted 9 months ago #

5. acorneau
   Member

   I think you miss the point...

   To me, "flow" is about knowing exactly what hand goes where and where your feet go... not much thinking, just doing.

   Many people love my climbs because I force people to think about how to get the route done. We call it the "puzzle factor". Once you unlock the puzzle then it becomes easier to do and very often it becomes someone's favorite route in the gym because they finally "figured it out".

   One thing I noticed when visiting Momentum (SLC) a few months ago was there was almost no thinking involved to get to the top, just endurance. While I enjoyed climbing at their very nice gym, the routes were... well, boring.

   To bring it back: Sure, I set lots of climbs with exactly the holds I want in exactly the place I want, but using a bit of randomness is like having a guest setter set something and achieving a style of climb that isn't usually in the gym. Most people that I speak with appreciate new and varying styles of climbs, not the same old moves from the same old people.

   But then again, your mileage may vary.

   Posted 9 months ago #

6. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   Flow to me is obvious movement. I'm with acorneau, I prefer to set a route that requires thought, work, then perfection for your "flow". Not the mindless ladder with hard moves that some people call 'real' setting. Don't get me wrong, some times i don't care to think about what i'm doing, just wanna pull hard. That, however, won't always hold someone's interest.

   Oh, and if indoor is supposed to be practice for the outdoors, isn't an nonresistant, random hold method more like the outdoors? Both in climbing and in the way you think about the route. One doesn't approach the outdoors thinking "Man, I sure am glad these holds are always clearly placed in such a manor all I have to do is muscle up, and not try to figure out how do anything".

   Posted 9 months ago #

7. kent dunham
   Member

   I think chucking a bunch of random holds on the wall and seeing what sort of route chance produces is an aweful idea for a gym.

   First: it wastes space and holds. I'm sure most gyms don't have stacks of awesome holds in the back that no one uses. When you randomly put holds on a wall, it may create a unique seaquence or hand positin, but I find that the hold is not optimized, or the move could have been created with a hold that suited the move better.

   Second: a gym is an artificial environment that you control. As such, you should never find a route that won't get at least 2 stars if it were outdoors. If chance produces a 5.12 that is a 5.10 with a single V5 crux, that sucks! I totally agree that easy to read hold ladders get boring quick, but there should be some consistancy in the route, not a one move wonder. If you leave it to chance you are more likely to get that kind of route. I will sometimes pick a random hold and see what kind of route I can creat with it, but all the moves leading into the hold and exiting the hold are very purposful.

   Posted 9 months ago #

8. Small-Time-Okie
   Member

   So, how about setting a random hold route as a break from the norm. Just setting it every now and then. Or have one for each section of the gym. That way you can have the power ladders that everyone know, but some variety here and there.

   Posted 9 months ago #

9. Cranky
   Member

   I don't really use a random method of setting. I prefer to choose holds that are suitable for the particular grade I am setting, but I can see doing something different for fun once in a while. Maybe even get members involved.

   The debate over grading and arguments which it causes is unfortunate. Opinions differ but there is no way any setter should tolerate abuse or raised voices from a member over grades, routes or anything related to setting, If you are the head route setter than you can make the final decision about grades, if you are not the head setter than the head setter should step up and support you. Indoor grades are not outdoor grades, anyone willing to spend time arguing about a 5.7 route on plastic needs to get a life. Throw abusive people out of the gym (with the support of the owner/manager) if you need to.

   Good luck

   Posted 9 months ago #

10. Small-Time-Okie
    Member

    One thing I did like about this random setting method, new movement to work with. With this problem, a lot of interesting beta was imagined, attempted, and ultimately failed. However, one sequence that came out of the set was a great move where, on a vert. 7ft tall traverse wall with many random feet along bottom, one climber had to do the following to move 3 feet and around a corner:

    1. Left hand on 1/2 pad left side pull crimp.
    2. Move the right hand to a small 1/4 pad gaston crimp.
    3. Adjust feet to the right.
    4. Rose the left hand to the 90degree corner to the right of the 1/4 crimp.
    5. Match hands on arete,
    6. Lastly move left hand back right to gaston (now left side pull) 1/4 pad crimp.
    Then he was free to move around the corner and to the single pad two finger pocket/mono match.

    When done correctly, it was one of the most graceful/desperate moves I've ever seen, and now it's something I can work with to make harder, easier, etc. So there are pros and cons to this method.

    Posted 9 months ago #

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    Member

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    Posted 9 months ago #

12. Herman
    Member

    @ Kent:

    A gym is an artificial environment that you control. As such, you should never find a route that won't get at least 2 stars if it were outdoors.

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    Posted 9 months ago #

13. kent dunham
    Member

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    Posted 9 months ago #

14. chulich
    Member

    I feel with random holds added short climbers get screwed and tall climbers reach and not much is learned or accomplished. I believe routes should be set in a meaningful matter and leave the randomness for outdoor climbing where space, holds, ect. Aren't an issue,

    Posted 9 months ago #

15. brent.leeper
    Member

    Random hold setting, to me, means you're not a setter. Anyone can throw holds in a bucket, put them up, and call it a route. "Put a bird on it, call it art!" - Portlandia. I'm not saying randomness doesn't have its place, but to have NO plan? Terrible.

    True genius (and route setting)lies in making people do what you want. Forcing a bump from a decent hold to a crappy one to stay on beta, or making people look for that extra foot chip to make that next reach actually reachable. Or even hold consistency.

    Truly random setting just seems like an awful idea.

    Posted 9 months ago #

16. Steve W.
    Member

    Absolutely random setting is a bad idea. You have no difficulty, no theme/style in mind. No objectivity, no planning. Basically it's no different then asking some random stranger stoned out of his mind who knows nothing about climbing or movement to grab a ladder and start putting choss on the wall. Can you end up with some interesting beta? Sure. Percentage? Very low, not to mention that, chances are, it's only a small section that may have something of interest while the rest of the holds are wasted. Wasting holds = wasting money and valuable wall space.

    Am I totally opposed to randomizing holds on the wall for fun? No. But there's a time and a place for such an endeavor, and it shouldn't be part of your regular setting cycle.

    Posted 9 months ago #

17. Small-Time-Okie
    Member

    Well, clearly yo wouldn't want to set a completely random problem and call it a job well done. Try setting it as a test piece. What I did was set it the evening before our members night, then made sure I was there on members night to advertise the problem and get people to try it. Telling them what I did and for them to come up with some way of climbing it. Keeping beta in your head till a few people climb it. Then have a beta spraying session. Comes up with some interesting ideas, few worked, but now we have ideas to play with. The problem was then tweaked to fit the most successful beta and called a V6.

    I would suggest people give this a shot, if nothing more than just to see what happens.

    Posted 8 months ago #

18. Steve W.
    Member

    Actually every once in a while I kind of do this with a buddy of mine. We'd take random holds and partially bolt it on the wall, randomly spin in, stop the hold at some random position, and randomly tighten. Do the same with the other holds and when done, we try to figure out how to negotiate it, kind of like.. finding a brand new boulder problem outdoors and working out the beta :). Super fun.

    That being said however, we only restrict ourselves to doing this on our own woodie, or when we're ahead of our setting cycle and just want something different to train/climb on in the gym - it's "extra" holds we put on the wall, and never part of our commercial setting cycle.

    And I apologize for not answering your question earlier:

    "Also, have you ever had to deal with people that just won't agree to your idea of the grade? Like people that just scream personal insults cause you don't think they were right in grading a route based on half the climb?"

    Absolutely. That's part of the setting game and comes with the territory. You're NEVER going to make everyone happy. Even the best setters in the world still get bashed on by pro climbers on their sets and their grading. It may be your fault, or it may not, depending on your experience as a setter and your, and I say this lightly, "accuracy" of the grade. But what I find is that most people who have the audacity to consistently bash on setters and complain about grades have an ego the size of the wall they're climbing on. What they think is right, and very little will deter them from that mindset.

    The best method of grading that I find is to get a consensus. After the set, leave the problem ungraded, and let people run it for a day or two and see what they say. 12 people can't be wrong against 1 egotistical climber.

    Posted 8 months ago #

19. kyle.vanhouse
    Member

    Have a idea and grade in mind and always think about the shorties. Also, acknowledge your strengths and weakness and leave the routesetting ego out of it. Try leaving it without a grade for a while and listen to what the sutomers say. You are setting for THEM, afterall. Cheers.

    Posted 8 months ago #

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    Member

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    Posted 8 months ago #

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