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1. smokeNmirrors
   Member

   Regionals are in less than two weeks. How well do your kids (and parents) know the rules?

   Every year at this time, as coach, I find myself spending a lot of time educating first time kids and parents the rules of an onsight comp. An onsight comp is disgustingly complex for a 9 year old compared to soccer. They're essentially on their own with the route judge while climbing. And telling them to read the 38 page rule book is not the solution. I compile a list of the most important scoring rules, hand it out, and walk kids and parents through the process. We then do mock onsight comps, stick the kids in isolation, bring them out one at a time and recreate the regional format experience at a couple of practices leading up to the big day.

   Anybody else have any tricks to get the rules and format engraved into brains?

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Greg Rupp
   Member

   First, the onsight format for the ABS is a misnomer; it's a time restricted redpoint. In SCS comps onsight is onsight.

   I'd take some of the pressure off the younger kids by pointing this out.

   The prossess of running 120 competitors through a dual round onsight ABS comp is challenging for the people putting it on and more so for the young competitors.

   A simple drawing (flow chart) of, generally, how competitors will move from iso to each problem, rest period, and what to do when they're done may help less experienced competitors know what to expect.

   The nuances of scoring can be daunting for younger kids too. I think that breaking it down to watching boundries and understanding hold control simplifies things.

   Early in the season discussions of comp stategy also prepares them.

   As for dealing with the parents--- I don't know--- give 'em the book.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. m.rougeux
   Member

   Now with the fact that we don't have any local onsight (or time restricted redpoint)comps the kids do seem to get a bit more worked up about Regionals. I also run them through a mock onsight which they like and I think they benefit from. Besides explaining some onsight strategies and working on those in practice I also try to cover iso warm-ups and have them perform their iso warm-up at the start of each practice. My thinking on this is the more I can do to have them feel comfortable and less stressed the better.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Donovan Craig
   Member

   This is something in line with the questions posed…

   I heard via the grape vine that many of the kids in our division actually don’t make it past regionals due to other kids from other regions competing in our division. Now when I was a coach for a team (years ago) this wasn’t really a major issue cause it was commonly frowned upon to do such a thing. However it seems that it is now widely accepted.

   Now granted, Im an advocate of the best kids making it to the best comp, I understand that, but aren’t these “regional boundaries” put in place to help mitigate the fact that others get a fair and equal opportunity? Shouldn’t competitors be expected to compete versus their peers in their own division?

   I think this was a topic on the old routesetter.com, but Im not sure I can navigate back there. What is commonly accepted these days, and have I missed out on some key information?

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Texas Toast
   Member

   Are you talking about the Heartland region?

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. Donovan Craig
   Member

   No, why does it happen there too?

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. shawd01
   Member

   Donovan I am guessing you are talking about ABS witch just has regions and National, SCS has Regions, Divisions, and National.

   But I think you are referring to Mid Atlantic.

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Donovan Craig
   Member

   Shad01 = correct! I think its bogus!

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. shawd01
   Member

   Yeah I bet they get competitors from the capital area at there comps. I know last year we wished we could go to a different regional Because ours(SE) was 7 hours away and the Mid Atlantic comp was only 3 hours from us but we were told its not aloud even though they are in same Division.

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. Cranky
    Member

    I am sorry to be "that guy" and I know it has nothing to do with route setting or this thread.

    Aloud is not allowed, there is not their, witch is not which. Not picking on anyone but somewhere there are English teachers twitching in their beds.

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. acorneau
    Member

    Yeah, I see that "alot".

    :-P

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. smokeNmirrors
    Member

    ABS does not use a climbers place of residence as an eligibility factor for attending ABS Regionals.

    This could be exploited by stronger larger teams looking to get more climbers into Nationals. Such team could split up and send their weaker climbers to a weaker division with the hopes that a couple more kids could qualify.

    Fair? I don't know.

    It'd definitely be frustrating to watch a climber that's worked all season, beat everyone else at the local comps, socially bonded with everyone else at the local comps, and then watch someone else come in from outside the region take their invite to nationals.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. Hardin
    Member

    Yeah, I'd like to hear Tyson's and Joe's views on this. Here in the Capital region we have a team that competes all season locally then goes to another region (known to be "easier") to qualify for Nationals.

    I understand it's a coaches job to get their kids into nationals but where does it overstep the lines. This is just one part of the ugly side of youth climbing events. I believe its due in large part to the sports gray ethics, parents/coaches taking advantage of the rules and ability to interpret such things as "control" and "positive movement". I guess in the end, it is what it is and people will always try to bend or break the rules if they can get away with it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. Donovan Craig
    Member

    "Nuf sed, ill B shore 2 let U all no if I C any1 from Capitol down myway."

    hahaha.... English teachers everywhere are having fits of epic proportion!!!

    Seriously though, the best climber wins inevitably, so stacking the regions proves nothing other than, you have more money than the locals.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. tyson
    Member

    we dont really have that problem up here in the northwest. we have not experienced it.
    on paper, it seems very cheap and weak to compete outside your region to receive invites to nationals. but some people have their reasons and see no problem with this. in reality we have some regions that are really stacked and have 5 kids in a category who would place top 10 at nationals but they only have 2 invites. so i can see why some people would see it as being fair. to each their own.
    that being said, i would never have my team do this. i personally feel that this is outside the lines of what is right. in a small community like ours, i truly believe it is up to the coaches to set the standard of values that competition climbing is based on. our teams do what we ask. they look to us for guidance. what type of message are we sending to the kids and their parents if we are bending the rules and endorsing this tactic?
    but like i said, some people dont look at it that way.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. Avery
    Member

    For some reason I thought that competitors had to get special permission to compete in a Regional Comp outside their home region... Is this a rule, or has it been a rule in the past?

    Tyson – well put. I would also take it a step further and question the coach who encourages, condones or is aware of a competitor knowingly competing in a different region. It could be considered unethical and one could make a reasonable argument that it is in violation of the coaches code of conduct.

    If a talented football player lives at a particular address, and he wants to play on a football team - that player has to play football at his appointed school or league regardless of how good or bad the team, league or competition is.

    YES, I KNOW it's a different sport but this isn't a new problem and I think the USAC should consider such behavior by a coach, competitior or region.

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. Donovan Craig
    Member

    What about the parents? They're sometime to blame too. Some of them have little or no regard for a coach's word. So therefore it should fall under USAC to regulate this right? Or is that too much... I think they do it for SCS but not ABS... I dont know and dont quote me either, as Im the one asking questions...

    :)

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. timwise
    Member

    I think this year when competitors registered with USAC they had to declare which ABS regional they were going to attend. I don't know if switching was allowed after that. Doesn't stop region picking, but forces it to happen at the begining of the season.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. tyson
    Member

    you are allowed to compete in any regional you would like. you just have to declare it when you register for the season before your first event.

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. timwise
    Member

    Thanks, tyson. Now if you could view ABS rankings on the USAC site by region, you'd know who was going to be at Regionals. Currently ABS rankings are by state.

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. Donovan Craig
    Member

    Not to be OCD but just pointing out that FYB has 16 competitors and only 2 spots for nationals, FYA has 4 competitors and 3 spots for nationals!!! How does that work??? And yes Capital showed up in our region in full force. Not that I blame them, they are good kids and good guys, just wish others had a chance... That's all I'm saying.

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. shawd01
    Member

    one word "byes"

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. tyson
    Member

    let me mention one more thing on this subject.
    there are many reasons for coaches and more importantly parents to take their teams to other regionals. it is not always to "steal" slots. 99% of the time it isnt at all.
    in reality, the allocation slots per category per region are based on how many are registered for that regional. if you dont have the teams from outside your region coming into your regional, you dont get as many allocation slots anyway.
    i run a big team. we generally have 50+ kids at the regional. if we dont bring those kids, half those slots dont go to our particular region.
    my post from above mentions ethics and right and wrong. that was referring to a couple situations in the past where this had been brought up. like i said, i do feel that it is "wrong". but i also know that there are many situations that warrant a team to go to a different regional. what if your regional was at a crappy gym and you knew the routesetting was going to suck? i would take my team somewhere else no question.
    jeremy, i have talked with a coach who brought their team into your regional. i think you should to. there was no malicious intent at all.
    anyways, we had a wonderful regional. so much fun. i havent had fun like that in a long time.
    see you all in a few weeks.
    tyson

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. Hardin
    Member

    I agree that most of the time the reason for going to a different region isn't to "steal slots" and even those that do I wouldn't call it malicious in any way. In our particular case I believe it actually helped our team this time. But i'll stick to my belief that doing this isn't 100%....i dont know a good word for it but we'll use ethical for now. I mean i even wanted to go to a different region because the current gym isn't up to the quality that i think regionals should be, but to me, we competed all season locally and it should only be right to attend "our" regionals. Anyways it's just something to think about. I think in our region the best kids did receive the invites and thats what matters to me. Best of luck to everyone.

    Posted 1 year ago #

25. puccio
    Member

    I wish we could just change the season to the same way we do SCS, Regional,Divisional& National.This way kids could get to a higher competition and feel some accomplishment to their season. Also Having a increase to 13 regional competition is a bit much. What ever happened to the 10 that we had forever and having become a USA Team member mean something. I still do not understand why we had so many regional comps this year. 2 regions had less then 42 competitors and one of those had only 18.One region had 162 and the next had 141 here lies part of the problem,too many regional comps!We should just make it simple and have the same format for both ABS and SCS. Give the USA Team members their status back, Let them be a additional bye for their region.

    Posted 1 year ago #

26. Donovan Craig
    Member

    I think its one thing to say to a couple of your kids..."hey I think that you should go and compete in that other region cause we have a bunch of you that could make nationals"
    But to "divide and conquer" your entire team just so you can increase the number of participants at nationals, and get to put on your resume that you sent 100's of kids to nationals??? thats just plain wrong. The reason our FYB only had 2slots in our region, was cause we only had 7 kids from our region sign up. We had a total of 17 FYB, that means 10 kids from other regions showed up to try and oust our regions competitors.

    Francesca Metcalf went down to Houston to qualify(!), thats one kid... understandable... but sending 20+ kids... that just plain wrong.

    Yes Kim, this needs to change, and apparently it is for next year! Someone had a "Duh" moment and now it'll be the same as SCS... apparently.

    Posted 1 year ago #

27. justclimb
    Member

    Hello all,

    First off I want to apologize in advance for the length of this post. My name is Mike Lyons and I am the Head Coach of the Earth Treks Climbing Team. Below is a link to what I would like to say. There is not a good way for me to post all of this information on here so I had to create a PDF. I hope this clears up any misconceptions and accusations about ethics and "slot stealing"

    https://www.earthtreksclimbing.com/images/stories/blog_images/routesetter_post.pdf

    Thanks

    Posted 1 year ago #

28. Hardin
    Member

    Hey Mike,

    First off Congrats on your teams success, any regional you guys went to i'm sure you would have done the same. Dont take any of what has been said here personally, nor feel like you have to defend your actions. Aside from Donovan, I dont think anyone is upset or anything. The main topic was just brought up to get everyone's opinion of the matter and not to call anyone out. I for one can attest to your charactor and know that you wouldn't send your team to "oust" other competitors. Like I said earlier, I wanted to go down south to Triangle myself, and believe that having the region split up a bit helped our youth b kids. I think the majority of us view this the same way, that it isn't 100% right or wrong. Again just something to think about, hopefully next year we'll see Divisionals added to ABS session. Good luck to everyone at Nationals!

    Posted 1 year ago #

29. tyson
    Member

    well done mike,
    im sure that clears up much of the situation, not only in your area but also in others.
    you are and always have been stand up.

    Posted 1 year ago #

30. Donovan Craig
    Member

    Mike, You're a respectable guy and I truly appreciate the long winded explanation, and the time and effort you put into it. I am not here to punch anyone in the back. I think I am just looking out for myself, and I mean you no ill will! Seriously! I am not as versed in the rules and regulations as you are and I very much appreciate your interest. Saying that I think this is not as much of a region vs region issue, more than it is a USAC rules vs ethics issue. I dont have access to the USAC rules and Im sure if I followed through on the whole coaching thing (like I used to) I would be privy to all changes and exceptions.

    I like many others have learnt not to stand behind the anonymous name tag, I prefer to use my own so that if theres anything I have said or done I can learn from it.

    You bring up many valid points in your write up and all of which are legitimate. I now have a better understanding of "bring a few kids down" actually equals +- 45 kids! (That in its self is impressive). For me, I have one kid... understand that from my point of view, I need to see whats in our best interests too.

    I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking you and or your region, I guess it is rather confusing between what are the rules and where the ethics lie.

    I'll bore you no longer with my dialog.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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