I'm interested in creating an open discussion regarding setting. I was watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NlLm8gWFOY&feature=related
and some of the other videos on there and wanted to see/read/discuss more on the topic of route setting and forcing moves.
If you have any routes or sequences you've been excited about I'd love to see video or read about them!
This could be a very interesting topic.
The route in the video looks amazingly cool but it would be neat to see and hear how and why each move was set to force the sequence. Next I think it would be valuable to see a route climbed by the setter via the intended sequence, then by others trying to "beat" the sequence.
I know I have set things with the best of intentions then someone crimps a foot jib, makes a big cross, or other move and bypasses the crux I was trying to force. Often times this can make the climb harder (if you want to do it that way...go for it), other times I smack myself in the head and need to tweek things to move a foot or change a hold.
Personally, I have always found myself going back to one of my favorite sequences when I fell I am stuck in a rut:
Power Cross (Left to Right in this Case)
Left on small edge
Right on decent (but small...no matching) pinch
Cross left to open pinch
Big dynamic right out of the cross to a gaston
Finish the sequence by either moving from the gaston to layback (forcing another cross) or by finishing the route with the left hand.
Feet set wide the whole way across.
When set on slightly overhanging terrain, this move requires HUGE amounts of tension through the whole body and demanding focus on footwork while holding that tension.
I can set endless variations on this theme. I guess it is a bit of a bread and butter move for me.
Be stingey with holds!! I have found that the best way to prevent people "cheating" the sequence is to use a few holds as possible. It really forces you think of all the possible ways to use each hold and often adds a element of mental trickery to the climb. I usually have a foot or two to start and then its all tracking.
I am a short dude, and it has helped to climb and set with a realy tall dude lately.
In the end, you will never be able to read all possible seaquences, but in my opinion a really good route can be done a couple of ways but still holds the same grade.
I think, but Im not sure, that those videos are there because they were used in the old Routesetter.com. I think that they had an article or a write up about them, but that was all that they did. It takes A LOT of effort to put together something like that, especially to the point where it makes sense to everyone and anyone can replicate it. Its not just a guy and a camera!
That was Chris Danielson btw... so feel free to ask him more about it. I'm sure he could teach you many things (not for free obvcourse, but worth every penny!)
Here is the post where Chris describes what you see in the video: http://ow.ly/1WTkB
I wouldn't expect for all kinds of people to respond with a video and article like that, although I wouldn't complain if someone did. I was more using it as a motivational example.
Morgan you are right on!
I would love to do this myself, I have considered it. Yet as mentioned before it takes a lot of effort and time. The reward however comes in the form of self gratification!
My style is quite opposite of Kent's. I find it very intriguing when specific movements can be forced even though there are many holds in relatively close proximity. I try to be generous with feet but pick directional handholds (i.e. one side is an unbearable sloper but other side of the hold is a pretty decent flat edge that will only be useful if your body is in the right position) and place them at different angles so climbers can't cheat the sequence. I also sometimes intentionally throw in bigger footholds as handholds to be used as intermediates since you can often find some crappy intermediates before a big move when climbing outdoors. I am pretty short (5'5") but don't usually like to track unless the terrain is steep.
It's not that I don't like tracking problems that have few holds as possible. I'm just too weak for that stuff hehe
I for a long time only built tracking routes, but lately i've been a little more liberal with the feet. I've gotten a ton of positive feedback since making that shift. Both approaches are valid, but serve different customer preferences. We get a lot of rec climbers; .10's are considered hard in our gym.
As far as different body types, when i fall in love with a move that's tall-oriented (i'm 6'2"), I sometimes create two separate sequences of about the same difficulty. For example one toprope route had a dyno finish which could also be reached by pressing into a nearby dihedral and matching foot to hand. Two completely different options of roughly the same difficulty. Not exactly a forced sequence, but another approach to planned movement.
I'm 5'10" and my girlfriend is 5'1", so I'm very cognizant of moves that are hard just because they are reachy for shorter people.
Sure, some tall people will reach past some moves, but I try to set it so the next set is just out of reach of the tall people, forcing them to use the lower holds to make the moves. Not always possible but it helps.
Adding extra feet options will also help make sure that shorter people can make the moves and not get shut down on distance alone.
I've been waiting for the right time to bust out a dyno then from that super jug, figure-4 to a side pull and force a heel hook and move on with the rest of the route...It will happen soon.
I've been playing the last few days, mainly because of this discussion.
Now I know that setting a forced sequence is hard, adding more feet for shorter climbers always helps... but I do love to play with dual textured holds...
I find them a good way to set a forced sequence. But there's not enough small dt holds out there.
I've been playing with sequences that force you to drop your weight. Such as working out from a vertical wall onto a 45 so the feet stay behind on the 45 while the hands work out towards the 45, where you have to drop your weight down to match while your feet are still back on the vertical wall. Also I've been enjoying moves on steep terrain(45) that suck your static energy, such as going from matchable under cling with a foot about 3 feet out and 1-2 feet down, then forcing a toss with left hand to a crimp, so when you hit the crimp gravity sucks you down.
kyle--- how do you force a figure 4? i've tried but climbers always seem to be able to wriggle around it.
Oh the figure 4! How I love this sucker. (Little known fact: just about anywhere else in the world it is called 'The Yaniro')
My 2-cents on this move. The steeper the wall the better, though I have the most success with this at 30-45 deg overhang.
The fig-4 hold should be a single hand, directional, monster jug that is very difficult to match. e-Grips 'jibber jabber', not the ring one, is ideal. Place it at a slight undercling angle to prevent matching.
They need to come into the fig-4 jug from the side, not from below. The hold they are coming from needs to be so directional and/or duo-tex so it cannot be used as a foot. Do not allow any other potential foot options once they hit the fig-4 jug
The 'target hold' they are going to needs to also be single hand and directional, but not a jug. It needs to have enough bite to allow the climber to unwind the fig-4, but small enough and directional enough to prevent campusing or matching. (Bear in mind that Sharma-like talents will just campus anyways, but we usually aren't setting for those cats!)
Most important: The target hold also needs to be located above and off to the side of the fig-4 jug, about the distance of a big cross thru, approx. 3' over and 1+' up.
The next move needs to be far enough away that having the correct hand on the target hold is critical.
Expect most climbers to hate your problem until they figure it out or are shown the correct beta! It is cool to see done well, but most have no clue how to execute a good fig-4, even if they understand the concept: pinch your wrist with the knee, not your elbow!!!!!
Have fun!
this is great, thanks for the detail!
Forcing sequences is tough to do in commercial setting due to the limitations of reach for accommodating short adults and even kids. Many of us (as setters) know there are some hella strong kids out there who could do the problem in the video of Chris Danielson....but obviously would not have the arm span to do so.
Most of the time, when I would have something set for shorter clients, taller people could bypass or skip intended beta. There are the few times when the holds and angles are just right and it works for everyone, but typically most setters dont put that kind of time into commercial setting.
Forcing sequences is tough to do, not only in commercial settings, but in comp settings too. But that is the whole point of a route setter - to force sequences and make fun and interesting routes. Reach should not be an issue as you should be able to set routes for both people who are 5'1 and 6'. Extra feet and intermediate holds should allow you to keep certain moves on a route without them being too reachy or skipped.
This is a great thread, kudos to Morgan for starting it.
Can anyone help me with the best way to force a nice low drop knee? I've been trying to put up some different routes that force people to work on their techinique. A number of them need to think about their feet more often so I want to force them into it. They'll learn if I make them!
Thanks!
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