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1. Sloperslapper
   Member

   I know we've had a couple of discussions here, back and forth, about setting becoming more of an established, respected profession, but I am curious how many folks out there are involved with setting as more of a secondary pursuit, while focusing their primary energies on a typical 9-to-5. My own situation is that I have a great job, that pays way more than I could ever make doing things related to climbing, and I really love it.

   I also love to set routes. The conflict between the two happens in several places - one being that typical setting times tend to conflict with the 9 to 5 schedule. Another is that the work schedule can make it difficult to keep a regular setting schedule.

   In a way, I look at setting as my only artistic outlet - there are setters who do it as a job, just as there are artists who make their livings doing their art. For every one painter who has space in a gallery to sell paintings, there are many, many more who paint for the joy of it, regardless of whether they get paid or not. I consider myself someone who sets for the same reasons - the only hurdle is that, as gyms strive for a more professional setting crew (a great thing, by the way!), some of us "hobbyist setters" lose our access to a creative outlet.

   Given the choice between the two, I'd rather set for free than for pay - for the same reasons a musician might prefer to make music for free - mostly creative freedom and the lack of sense that I've turned an enjoyable hobby into a sometimes-tedious job. As the commercial gyms become more professional, it's great for most people, but I do feel that I am losing a chance to express myself, as fewer and fewer places welcome "hobby" setters.

   Any thoughts, especially from people who juggle a full time job with their setting, on how to reconcile the two?

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. acorneau
   Member

   Great topic that really reflects my situation.

   I have a M-F, 9-6 job as a mastering engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastering). I can't say that working in the music industry is a big money maker, but I get by and I love what I do. I also love setting and watching people climb my climbs.

   The arrangement I have with my gym is I set Sunday's from 10am-4pm, which was my schedule when I worked a normal "floor" shift. If I want to be out for a weekend it's no big deal for me to skip a Sunday as there are 4 or 5 other guys setting as well. I do get paid a minimal hourly rate as well as get free climbing for me and my fiancée, but I'd probably do it just for the free climbing.

   I agree that it's a great way to express your creativity. I find it very interesting when I set something that's a little "different" from my normal style and I get feedback ranging from "awesome climb!" to "I don't like it". The great thing is you don't have to please everyone all the time, just most of the people most of the time!

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. Brannon
   Member

   I see a "hobby" setter as someone who is learning from the ground up while being guided by other regular setters, often working for free membership or other perks. I think the best way to balance a 9-5 job and professional setting is to set and maintain a schedule of times when you will be in the gym setting. Be clear with the head setter in regards to how much time you can offer and the quantity of routes you can set in that time. By keeping a schedule the gym knows when to count on you and not treat you as a burden that is tolerated. During comp season you are more likely top be called on to help out if it can fit your schedule.

   When I was a head setter I would get annoyed at my trade-out setters who came in at odd hours and treated the job as just a "hobby." From what I have read on this forum, most folks are professional setters, proud of their craft and art, and need to respect climbing gym management and be respected by the same.

   I am a semi-professional photographer and I make this argument all the time when talking about free stock photo web sites and young photographers wanting to get their name (and work) established by giving it away. If you want to start getting paid for your art, the worst thing to do is start off by giving away the only thing that will make you money.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Kaleb Thomas
   Member

   This breaks down into two categories...

   If I am paying you (this includes membership):
   A)I want you to show up for your shift and be on time.
   B)I want you to put up the specific routes that the gym needs (not some overhanging 5.13 mega proj offwidth with a rad dyno to a heel hook on a slab)
   C)I want you to dress appropriately with either approach shoes or climbing shoes on your feet while setting
   D)I want high quality routes set in a sensible amount of time
   &
   E)I want you to put all the holds, tools and tape back exactly were you found them...

   But,

   If your doing it for for fun:
   A) I don't care what you do as long as your safe, dress appropriately (with climbing shoes) Respect anything I ask you to change on your route and put everything away exactly were you found it... And don't take any holds bigger then your ass... those are mine, I got an "overhanging 5.13 mega proj offwidth with a rad dyno to a heel hook on a slab" too set.

   Kaleb

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Sloperslapper
   Member

   "If you want to start getting paid for your art, the worst thing to do is start off by giving away the only thing that will make you money. "

   The thing is, I don't care if I get paid. I spent over a decade in college, and I get paid for the stuff I worked my butt off to learn there. Setting is something I do because I love to do it.

   I realize this idea tends to upset people who ARE trying to make setting their career, and the photography analogy is a great one, because there is definitely animosity between hobbyist photographers who give their stuff away for free, and the struggling pros who see that as taking food off their plates.

   The main difference there is that an amateur photographer can invest a couple of grand of his own money, buy all the equipment he wants, and start creating his art on his own terms. To do the same thing as a setter, the barrier to entry is much higher - you need access to a gym and a large selection of holds to really have a chance of expressing yourself.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. Sloperslapper
   Member

   I should also point out that I am not interested in taking anyone's job away from them. I am not interested in spending multiple 10-hour days a week in the gym setting. I've done it before, and it felt like I was turning something I did for joy into something tedious.

   What I WOULD like to do is get a chance to set a route once in a while. To be able to, when inspiration strikes me, express myself through the flow of movement on the rock. That's all. Not crank out as many routes as I can, or provide the main source of routes in a gym - just be creative, and hopefully make something that other folks can enjoy.

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. Kaleb Thomas
   Member

   Anyone who comes into my gym looking to turn some wrenches and not looking for money is more then welcome. I couple kids on my climbing team love setting there own projects.

   It allows them to set hard problems that not too reachy and something they will stay stoked on... Even if one of the kids sets a low quality problem, they usually get really stoked on it because they put it up. Anything that keeps my kids stoked is cool by me.

   Again as long as you follow a few simple rules, mainly putting my stuff away, id never turn anyone away... its less work i have to do!

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. Sloperslapper
   Member

   Kaleb - I wish every gym shared your same mentality! I've actually found it really difficult to find anyone who will just let me set for the enjoyment of it. I miss being in college, both because I had the free time to set as much as I wanted, and because the people in charge of the climbing wall on campus were overjoyed to have ANYONE who cared enough about setting to attend USAC clinics and read websites like routesetter.com

   I am also quite willing to listen to criticisms, or tear down a problem I set if the consensus is that it sucks. I am not a pro, and am happy to take advice from those who are.

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. Kaleb Thomas
   Member

   Ya, I'm kinda fishing for someone to give me a very good reason why volunteer setters shouldn't be aloud. it can create extra work sometimes, but everyone deserves one chance. If they don't put your tools away and put tape over tape and stuff that wastes your time iIcan understand why you wouldn't invite them back.

   I don't know about the rest of you, but my gym doesn't make over 100,000$ sales every month and anywhere we can save money helps.

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. Hardin
    Member

    -Sloperslapper / Kaleb-

    While this forum has been dead the past few days i'll take the time to give you the other side.

    You both present a very understandable argument for volunteer setters, as the Director of Routesetting at 2 large east coast gyms let me give you my two cents. We run a very strict setting program, with our 12+ operating years we've had less than 10 setters all together. And this is not due to the lack of excepting volunteers, We offer almost anyone with setting experience to come and try out. Here's the three most common problems we see, and while there are plenty of others, this will give you a little idea why they dont work for us. First, they are unable to work within our schedule of when and where. If you really want to set for us you should make the time, you wouldn't tell another job nope 9-5 doesn't work for me how about... Or because you have another job, your schedule with us is flaky and unreliable. Second; most volunteers don't have their own tools, which is the biggest mistake you can make. This is like coming to school without pencil and paper. If you are unprepared with the most important things how can you be expected to handle the minor things. Third; The volunteer only likes to set specifics. Make yourself more valuable by having experience in multiple areas. You should be able to set anything from 10 foot boulder problems to 60 routes, and having a decent grade range also helps. Other issues include efficiency, poor quality, inability to except criticism, and attitude. All these things just come with more experience, and once someone gets this experience they no longer (and shouldn't) just volunteer. Im not saying ALL volunteers are this way, it is just what we've come to see working with most. And lastly, Time is money to us big gyms too. When a volunteer doesn't work out we have wasted that investment and also may have to spend more time and money to remove routes.

    Jeremy

    Posted 1 year ago #

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