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1. Donovan Craig
   Member

   So last night I showed up at the gym, and the manager/head routesetter asked me if I had brought in my shapes to show him. I mentioned that I didn't have them and that I dont wish to transport them around un-necessarily (Spelling?) Nonetheless I showed him pictures and then we started walking around the gym looking at the new holds they just got in. Two set were pointed out and they were both from the same company, yet interestingly enough, the one set was well received and the other not. Granted they were completely different sets, but what I took away from the conversation is that routesetters and owners look for specific, lets call them attributes, in every hold.

   Therefore I pose the question, what does the community look for when looking at slopers, crimpers etc? Im not looking for "good edges" or "sweet real rock texture" more so the actual fundamentals that make one hold better than another. Obviously this will at some point lead down the road of personal opinion, but I kind of get the feeling that those who use the product often enough and those who produce the product are sometimes detached.

   For instance a comment made was... you dont see SoIll holds on big competition walls because they're not conventional shapes. While this maybe true, a really knowledgeable setter could theoretically set anything with everything. But what about the other 98% of setters out there. What are they basing their decision on when it comes to, "I used this hold instead of this hold because..."

   I have my own approach, but I was interested to see if what I thought and what I have heard from others is in line, or way off topic!

   Thanks for sharing...

   Posted 6 months ago #

2. Herman
   Member

   1. Pleasent to hold on to. (at the very least not unnecessary painful)

   That will eliminate all holds that are negively rounded (Middle finger lower than index and ring vinger) In fact I store those in my own personal stash that nobody else has access too. Looks a lot like a round archive :-)

   That will eliminate another 30% of all holds since those are specifically designed for either left or right hand

   That will eliminate all holds that have a sharpe edge which is not in between your knuckles

   That will eliminate all pockets where you will have to twist your fingers unpleasent

   That will also eliminate all holds that are to rough / appear anything like real rock. As they are always unpleasant to climb on. Some might want to copy nature (i don't) but if we copy nature we should only copy the good parts.

   That will also eliminate anything with less then 2 vingers (1 vinger, 1 1/2 vinger pockets)

   2.
   No bolts sticking out of the holds

   3.
   No holds that are not all the same color / dirty with rubber smears / pale because of cleaning with acid.

   4.
   All holds with more than 2 positions for the hands since this will lead to rests

   5.
   All holds with more then 1 good position that when used, will lead to rests.

   Posted 6 months ago #

3. Lanky
   Member

   This is all just my opinion, but...

   1. Sharp is generally bad, particularly if it's from poorly radiused edges.

   2. Versatility is good... to a point. In my experience holds that "can be used in so many positions, dude!!!!" generally don't work well in any position.

   2a. Holds with only one good spot are nice for forcing sequences.

   3. Bigger is not necessarily better.

   4. Too much texture can be a bad thing.

   5. Function over form - usually if a hold is designed to look cool, that cool factor comes at the expense of usability.

   Posted 6 months ago #

4. Brannon
   Member

   What do I look for?

   Average size and shape...
   Color doesn't matter...
   A good feel in my hands...
   Clean bolt hole...I don't want to stick my bolts into something dirty...
   Enjoys long walks on the beach and candle light dinners...

   oh..were you asking about holds?

   I'm a big fan of holds that are right/left hand specific. Great for sequencing plus hand specific holds can be used for the off hand to create an added challenge.

   I also like to buy holds that will hold up through the abuse of gym life. Several years ago I got some fantastic shapes from EP. Loved the texture and the creativity that came from setting with them...but..If you looked at them wrong they would chip around the edges...if you happened to drop a hold a BIG chip would fly off. I am use to older resin holds being easy to chip but these holds from EP were ridiculous!

   Finally, I like shapes that are original and leads to new ideas and creative setting. I'm not a fan of gimmick holds (al a SoIll's telephones and lightbulbs).

   Posted 6 months ago #

5. Kaleb Thomas
   Member

   This might sound out of left field, but i find that what makes a perfect hold is hard to specify.

   if you see a dude get hit in the balls with a bat while teaching his kid to play baseball its funny, really funny. but if you ask why its funny, you say because the dude got hit in the balls but that is not why its funny. I hope you guys are following this makes sense in my head.

   When you grab a really fantastic hold (Climb - it = Patinas, Friction = Veins) it just feels right, everything comes together and when you grab it, it feels good and you wanna hold it, Teknik`s fat rings are a perfect example of holds that scream to be held.

   and it is different for everyone, just like laughter, one person prefers something else, if you do not think dane cook is funny, it does not mean he is not funny, you just do not think he is.

   All i am saying as that it is subjective and that i do not really know what it is, wether their is the perfect dimple thumb catch, the hold makes you work for the best position, or if its like the nicros sweet potato, you think its slap and go, but it is way more complex then that, certain holds are just right.

   And not being painful is definitely a huge factor!!

   Posted 6 months ago #

6. Jbrunson
   Member

   I agree with a lot of the technical things here-- especially hating sharp holds. Looking at the bigger picture, i love this quote from one of myfavorite articles.
   "I grabbed a deep vertical handlebar. Its texture was crisp and coarse, which was odd to find in a limestone wall this polished and slick. I loved that hold, and held onto it for a moment. I continued to the next hold, and became fascinated by its distinct shape and texture as well. The Traverse had suddenly enchanted me, and under its spell I found myself moving without any thought of the past or the future. Each hold appeared, and then it was gone, like seconds on a clock. Like time itself, The Traverse seemed as if it would never end."
   It's a lot easier to get in that zone outdoors, but plastic can give you similar feelings. after saying that i can't really think of the last time that happened to me.. oh well..

   Posted 6 months ago #

7. Donovan Craig
   Member

   Well it seems that there is a recurring theme with the sharp holds! I agree with many of the statements about sharp holds, yet I do feel that they still have their place in the indoor facility.

   As I mentioned this thread could and did quickly become a “personal preference” list but I have managed to learn a few things. Therefore I would like to pose some questions to you answers in order to dive deeper into the conversation, if you are interested.

   Herman: Should every hold be ambidextrous? I feel the need for there to be more left and right hand specific holds in order to force movement. The fact that many setters don’t know how to use them shouldn’t discard them from the selection.

   Lanky: I agree with you point about big holds not working. I too have found that people know exactly where the good part of the hold is an go directly for that spot regardless of how the hold is positioned. I think many shapers have made this error with large holds.

   Brannon: The flaw with EP holds is more a cosmetic issue than a functional issue (which is what I was looking for). But I agree with gimmick holds. There are billions upon billions of ideas out there, and gimmicks although cool in very special instances, are not first on my list of functional holds.

   Kaleb: I think you make a very valid point with the bat and balls! Im sure that anyone who has climbed for years and years would agree. This is because it is the “common knowledge” that we have all come to learn and therefore expect. We expect the kid to hit the ball, that would be the normal outcome that we expect, however instead the plan is foiled and the unexpected happens and its funny! This leads directly into the article that Jbrunson pointed out. The climber had a preconceived idea of what he thought the holds were going to be like, only to find out that they were so much more.

   I feel that ultimately the shapes that are created should enlighten us to the point where we have the freedom to set exactly what we wish to without compromise. The more simplistic designs allow the routesetter to accurately force the movement they seek. But I will reiterate that the most knowledgeable shapers should be able to set anything, anywhere, anytime.

   I think its safe to say that the hold must perform the function for which it was designed in the most efficient, most optimal way first, and then be aesthetically pleasing.

   The next trick is increasing the level of knowledge among our setters…

   Posted 6 months ago #

8. Kaleb Thomas
   Member

   As an outdoor climber, who climbs indoors to climb outdoors, i understand the importance of sharp holds, they are more realistic, and unlike A lot of the things i have heard on this forum, i am pro texture, i want my fingers to be sore after a session I like that.

   But as a person who lives in not the most climber friendly climate, and as the head route-setter of my gym, A lot of people complain about the sharp radi on some holds, and ultimatly for A lot of people these holds are injury prone.

   The fact remains about weird or awkward holds, if you took a 4 star route, so a route that is really good but not amazing, and you swapped two of the holds for really awkward uncomfortable or exceptionally sharp holds. That route would probably not hold its 4 stars, because the route would be come less climbable. I personally have said things and heard things such as "Man the rose move dyno from the slab to the overhang where you use the drop knee heal hook to get diagonal tension and the inside back flag for balance is rad!! But that two finger sloping crimper of death shredded my digits like my dad's woodchipper!! That Problem would be Rad-Gnar if it wasnt for that hold, but whatever another V2 send to brag to women about!! time for beer"

   Sorry i got carried away, But you get the point!!

   Posted 6 months ago #

9. Herman
   Member

   @donovan;
   Herman: Should every hold be ambidextrous?

   No, you've misunderstood me.

   I was trying to say that you do (and should) have hand specific holds.

   And I almost never use them for the wrong hand. As about 30% of our supply is either specifically left or right handed I can't use them in half the case.(for you mathematics out there: yes that's 15% i can't use not 30%)

   The other 15% I will use very often and when forcing a sequence.

   @ kaleb, completely agree with you about the star example.
   The most beatiful routes outside are almost always pleasent to climb on with pleasent holds. We should copy that part of nature most of the time. And throw in the occasional woodchipper.

   Posted 6 months ago #

10. Donovan Craig
    Member

    Herman: thanks for clarifying, I totally agree, there should be more hand specific holds, and we should all learn to use them as such!

    Posted 6 months ago #

11. Benky
    Member

    I look for holds who fit in the route i want to set.
    The caracter of a route is made by many different parts.
    The holds are one of the main parts you need to fit together.
    There is no good and no bad hold.
    It depense on the wall, on the grade, on the climbers, on the caracter of the route and
    who the route is setted for.

    So-iLL holds are more conventional as they wish them to be.
    You think ther is no electrophobia in the nature?
    You think there is no tincture or no swine flu in the natural rock?

    I think we can´t create forms which doesn´t exist in the nature.
    That´s impossible. You will always find the forms again and again.
    But So-iLL shapes won´t be found as much as the "conventional shapes"
    so that´s why we think they are different and special.

    There is everything outthere! You just haven´t seen it or haven´t climbed on it before.
    Maybe swiss granite or spanish limestone is more what you like to feel at the moment.
    But if you want to be a complete climber you should train on slick, rough, round, square-cut, deep-cut, low-cut or other kind of holds and walls.

    Everybody prefers a different style and at the moment the climbing comps are loosing the caracters because everybody is climbing in the same areas and likes the same style.
    But ther are Cracks, sharp pockets and slick font slaps where you need to have the experiance wicht different holds can teach you.

    How great would it be if there is a worldcup final slap and not a 80m roof.
    Which is more boring than a leather.

    And it´s not true that So-iLL has no place in the Worldcups.
    It was in nearly every Worldcup last year and the Boulderworldcups this year will have them as well. (MUNICH for sure)
    Like there was Cryptochild, Core Climbing, Friction Climbing and many others.

    Grap everything you can find and feel the flow when you bring the puzzle together.

    That´s climbing

    Posted 5 months ago #

12. Donovan Craig
    Member

    Benky: Thank you for your sentiments. They are all relevant however I must attempt once again to reign in the 'personal preference' of which I initially posted.

    Without subjecting everyone to a poll, “what do you look for in a hold?”
    Design
    Functionality
    Aesthetics
    Multi-purpose
    Single use
    Multi-surface

    Maybe Im asking the wrong questions and expecting the right answers. I understand that we all have different view on what conventional is, however across the globe a crimp is a crimp. I feel as though if a baseline were created we could all considerably learn from it. The understanding that a crimp is a crimp allows us to move forward from that point. Therefore in the same manner my question is posed as such. When you look at a shape, any shape, what makes this crimp better than that crimp? Not that its better but creates a universal baseline of understanding that if you put a sharp edge on this crimp it is less likely to make it on the wall because it does not fit the middle 80 of the norm. I kind of think that there are holds that make the middle 80 and then there are the left and right extremes that make up either end of the spectrum accounting for 10 on either side. The trouble here is that I think many routesetter don’t know where that 80 lies. I think the baseline is misconstrued and its viewed more like 60 in the middle and 20 on either side.

    Maybe this just makes sense in my mind, but if we can throw this idea around like a beach ball maybe the consensus will become more clear to everyone.

    Posted 5 months ago #

13. Kaleb Thomas
    Member

    Design - Simple yet unique

    Functionality - Usable in two positions, but no more then three, unless a big hold that is well designed

    Aesthetics - colorful, dont care, natural or not, as long as i can see it

    Multi-purpose - can i use it on V0 and V14?

    single use - i like single direction holds, it is why i like teknik, i found it is the most accurate representation of outdoors, where a hold is a ledge with nothing else(A lot of the time)

    Multi-Surface - So ill just sent us three really cool duel texture juggy pinchy units, they are steller but some people dont like the duel- tex... i like it when used with control

    Posted 5 months ago #

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